AMV Review #28: Rider4Z' Alchanum

[quadir]

AMV-Review's goal is to foster a sub-community that critically analyzes videos and looks for deeper meaning in the creations editors make. It is hoped that through this process will viewers and editors alike come to better appreciate videos that are well thought out, well executed, and progress AMVs as a medium of expression.

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On Monday at 20:30 EDT (8:30pm) in #amv-review we have a moderated discussion on a recently released video.
On Thursday all evening in #amv-review editors present BETAs (come out and present yours!) to get initial feedback on AMVs in the making.

Come join us!

This week's moderated discussion video:
(Rider4Z) - 2007 - Alchanum
Category: Action
Anime: Fullmetal Alchemist [Spoilers]
Song: Within Temptation - See Who I Am

Please use this thread to discuss this video, there's no need to read the IRC log, just watch the video, and start talking about it! What emotions did it evoke in you? What do you think the video taught you about the character it features?

Bonus Video:
([Stuff]) - 2007 - Theater of Love and Death
Category: Trailer
Anime: Gankutsuou
Song: Romeo and Juliet OST - O' Verona

After each discussion, we throw out a "bonus" video, which often doesn't lend itself perfectly to analysis, or is already well established but is worth recommending. Check it out!

Archive of previous moderated discussions:
2007 September 027-17, 026-10, 025-03
August 024-27, 023-20, 022-13, 021-06, July 020-30, 019-23, 018-16, 017-09, 016-02
June 015-25, 014-18, 013-11, 012-04, May 011-28, 010-21, 009-14, 008-07
April 007-30, 006-23, 005-16, 004-09, 003-02, March 002-26, 001-19

[quadir]

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Discussion:

IRC Participants: dj_ultima (dj_ultima_the_great - Jen), DriftRoot (Lauren), Fall_Child42 (Todd Serge), niotex (Mitch Sturkenboom), orethrius, Orwell, quadir (Olivier Beaton), Rave_Epic (Tim Tolan), RathiSponge (Billy Welch), teya, trythil

20:32 <quadir> Video: (Rider4Z) - 2007 - Alchanum
20:32 <quadir> Link: http://www.a-m-v.org/video/149943
20:32 <quadir> Category: Sentimental
20:32 <quadir> Anime: Fullmetal Alchemist [Spoilers]
20:32 <quadir> Song: Within Temptation - See Who I Am
20:36 <dj_ultima> ...I fail to see how "See Who I Am" can be made into a Sentimental AMV, but I guess I'll find out... o.O
20:36 <Fall_Child42> I see a theme already
20:36 <DriftRoot> It's majorly sentimental...
20:39 <Fall_Child42> I'm not even sure what "Sentimental" means
20:39 <Fall_Child42> honestly ... someone define that with regards to AMVs for me
20:39 <DriftRoot> It means, in this case, it makes you go...oohhhhh
20:39 <DriftRoot> or @_@ or "Damn, I'm glad I'm not Ed.'
20:39 <Fall_Child42> so it's got that Full House effect
20:39 <trythil> I actually called Spukhafte Fernwirkung "sentimental" because it's about longing
20:39 <trythil> so take that as you will
20:40 <Fall_Child42> i don't thatink that word means what you think it means
20:40 <trythil> I think it does, and that the OED can go burn in hell
20:40 <Orwell> Sentimental: When you don't have what you want, but your not being a whiny bitch about it.
20:41 <dj_ultima> It's like angst, but happy. I guess.
20:41 <dj_ultima> A strong content, happy emotion about something.
20:41 <DriftRoot> More like, angst with some sense of how annoying angst can be to everyone around you.
20:41 <dj_ultima> So you'd expect this to be a gentle, happy video. But given the song... I have no idea.
20:46 <Fall_Child42> ok NOW i know everything about FMA
20:46 <DriftRoot> Oh, I doubt it. :P
20:47 <DriftRoot> Ohhhh, nice!
20:47 <teya> does it matter if i don't know the anime?
20:47 <quadir> teya: yes, but that doesn't mean you can't approach it from that angle
20:48 <teya> um? okay..
20:48 <DriftRoot> I'm very interested in hearing from people who haven't seen FMA, on this one.
20:48 <Rave_Epic> I've only seen the first 10 episodes and became bored with, but the video was fantastic.
20:49 <Niotex> This video makes no sense at all
20:52 <dj_ultima> Ah, there it is. "Drama" and "Action" and "Serious" are all in the video profile, quadir. Any of those three would have been more descriptive than "Sentimental." >_>
20:52 <quadir> dj_ultima: I'll keep that in mind when I make up the thread
20:52 <DriftRoot> The categories he uses don't necessarily correlate with the categories a-m-v.org uses. Remember "effects" :)
20:53 <quadir> dj_ultima: they checked a lot of stuff, I picked one I identified with
20:53 <Fall_Child42> this is sentimental
20:53 <Fall_Child42> it fills me with an emotion
20:53 <dj_ultima> Guess we differ greatly in our identifications. ^_^;;
20:53 <Fall_Child42> not the one it's supposed to
20:53 <Fall_Child42> but one none the less
20:54 <DriftRoot> I'd like to see "Drama" and "Serious" replaced with Sentimental...maybe...as long as a definition of sentimental was provided...hrm..
20:55 <Fall_Child42> apperently sentimental is the single most vague thing ever
20:55 <Fall_Child42> "anything that makes on feel an emotion"
20:55 <DriftRoot> No, that would be "Other."
20:55 <dj_ultima> I'd like Sentimental to be removed entirely. It assumes the thought of "looking back on something fondly", and I somehow doubt that destroying your brother's body is something you look fondly on.
20:56 <DriftRoot> Ah, but he's fond of his brother, no?
20:57 <dj_ultima> Yeah, but the video isn't about his brother. It's about making up for the mistake he made, which is a thing of "drama" more than "sentiment."
20:57 <DriftRoot> He wouldn't be so concerned about his mistake if he didn't care so much about Al.
20:58 <Fall_Child42> dj_ultima Thats not sentiment
20:58 <Fall_Child42> Thats nostolgia
20:58 <dj_ultima> It's similar.
20:58 <DriftRoot> I'm not saying this is a sentimental video, rather than drama or serious...I'm just saying Ed must love his brother for any of this emotion to be worth the codec it was presented on.
20:59 <DriftRoot> er...bad terminology.
20:59 <Rave_Epic> I'm gonna have to say it was serious/drama.
20:59 <dj_ultima> No matter what, sentiment implies a positive feeling, and that's not really befitting of this video's style, or the style of the song.
20:59 <DriftRoot> Love is a positive feeling.
21:00 <DriftRoot> Wanting to sacrifice yourself so others can live...is a positive thing, in this case. Unfortunately it doesn't work out so well, but...it's a nice thought.
21:05 <trythil> I feel like I just watched Fullmetal Alchemist
21:05 <trythil> but I'm not sure if that's a bad or a good thing
21:05 <orethrius> Damn you, I was gonna watch it.
21:06 <orethrius> If it's just like the anime I'll just skip it.
21:06 <Orwell> Does it make as little sense in the show as it does in the amv?
21:06 <DriftRoot> Well, if you felt like you didn't watch it, then I'd say the editor screwed up somewhere.
21:06 <quadir> great, we've got a slew of ops in, people can finish them up and join in when they are done
21:06 <quadir> trythil: yeah especially with the introduction
21:06 <trythil> I'd say that if I felt like I watched it, whether or not the editor screwed up is entirely dependent on what they were going for
21:06 <trythil> for example
21:07 <trythil> I don't feel as if I "just watched Fullmetal Alchemist" when I watch Date Rape
21:07 <orethrius> trythil, is it *exactly* like the anime, or just a general feeling of "have I seen this before"
21:07 <DriftRoot> Yes, but Date Rape isn't trying to cover the series, this AMV is.
21:07 <trythil> right
21:07 <trythil> and that's the point
21:07 <DriftRoot> And my point too, I think.
21:07 <trythil> I'm one of those faggots that think that alternate-reality videos are cool, though, so disregard what I said
21:07 <orethrius> Apparently, heh
21:07 <Fall_Child42> I had no idea what was going on
21:08 <DriftRoot> I was waiting for someone to say that.
21:08 <Rave_Epic> AU videos are kick as, Trythil.
21:08 <Fall_Child42> past the text that layed out the plot of the anime
21:08 <DriftRoot> That too.
21:08 <Rathisponge> I think this amv had several themes going on : death/life , love , sacrifice, guilt, science/religion.
21:08 <orethrius> Sorry trythil, bad timing on my part there... *embarrassed*
21:08 <Fall_Child42> it was all random action and time shifting like mad
21:08 <DriftRoot> So you didn't put up on any themes, FC?
21:08 <DriftRoot> I was wondering how clear it was going to be if you haven't seen the series...
21:08 <Fall_Child42> theme of loss? mabey?
21:09 <Fall_Child42> revenge?
21:09 <quadir> Rathisponge: yeah, so many FMA vids seem to focus on the science part at the beginning, but fail because they don't convay the relationships and WHY
21:09 <teya> it was fairly clear because of the intro
21:09 <Fall_Child42> teya not so much
21:09 <DriftRoot> Revenge on who? What?
21:09 <Otohiko> the intro made sense
21:09 <Fall_Child42> he was supposed to be fighting for his mom
21:09 <Otohiko> beyond that I think it started losing focus
21:09 <DriftRoot> Er...
21:09 <Rathisponge> The death and life theme I think was exemplified through the beginning sequence that the mother had died and also the creation of new life or a renewal of life.
21:09 <Fall_Child42> but this other woman popped in out of nowhere and punched the blonde kid in the face
21:09 <Fall_Child42> then they hugged
21:09 <Fall_Child42> What?
21:09 <Otohiko> I'm not sure people punching each other contributed a lot to the story layout
21:09 <dj_ultima> I feel like the intro was completely unnecessary. It introduced an element (his mother) that barely appeared in the video.
21:09 <teya> okay.. well maybe i got a different impression from the intro than the anime actually does
21:09 <Otohiko> especially where it came out of nowhere
21:09 <DriftRoot> hehe
21:10 <Rave_Epic> Yeah..I'm not sure who the lady was
21:10 <teya> but it made it complete in itself
21:10 <quadir> Fall_Child42: I think you missed something in the intro, try index 1:38
21:10 <DriftRoot> FMA is confusing already, the story could have been presented in a much more linear way to maintain its themes of loss, struggle, loss again, more struggle, and finally some kind of victory.
21:10 <quadir> 1:49 really lays out how the rest of the video will play out
21:10 <Rathisponge> I believe the introduction brought up questions such as : what is death and life? can we create life?
21:11 <trythil> actually, I guess I should mention that I haven't seen Fullmetal Alchemist
21:11 <Niotex> uhh.. its the intro to the show..
21:11 <Fall_Child42> quadir ... that has nothing to do with face punching
21:11 <Rathisponge> Love is another theme that I found to be present throughout the amv. Love for his brother , was made very apparent throughout it.
21:12 <DriftRoot> See? Rath agrees there's love!
21:12 <quadir> Fall_Child42: from there you have a building relationship between the brother now that he's los this body, and ed who is struggling to make his goal come true
21:12 <Orwell> The intro gave me an idea of what he was trying to accomplish. His theme is less sentimental I thought and more confused. This viewer is confused as fuck to what the intro has to do with the amv in most cases, except for a few points, and perhaps Ed is confused as to why he's doing what he is and thus get's into random fights with people we don't know.
21:12 <Fall_Child42> quadir ... but what was that woman doing?
21:12 <quadir> Fall_Child42: the fighting, starting around 3:20 start to establish his struggle, and ot some degree his brothers, and furthering this quest
21:12 <Rathisponge> I believe the boy's love for their mother is also what drove them to begin their risky endeavour in the first place.
21:12 <dj_ultima> Okay, so some of the intro was okay, but it needed to be shorter. I feel like he was inflating the length with things that the video didn't really focus on just to keep up with the song length.
21:13 <dj_ultima> Maybe I'm wrong. I haven't seen FMA.
21:13 <teya> my impression: brothers try to revive mother. succeed, but results not what they wanted. in the process, they get ripped up. one boy gets soul put in machine. other boy makes it his mission to regain body for brother. am i missing something?
21:13 <DriftRoot> I realize we're supposed to be theme-focused, but the underlying plot structure of an AMV should support its theme. It got a little hairy with this one, started out well, then kind of staggered around and went out with a whimper.
21:13 <quadir> Fall_Child42: the woman is not their mother, I agree there that she was featured a bit too much, IIRC she kicks their asses because she wants them to be 'stronger' to achieve their dreams
21:13 <Fall_Child42> i see.
21:13 <Orwell> He relies FAAAR too heavily on the lyrics to convey anything more than the most basic reasoning for why many of the scenes are in there.
21:13 <Fall_Child42> but that had nothing to do with the plot or theme as far as i could tell
21:14 <DriftRoot> Yeah, you really have to know the series to get a lot of the deeper digs with this AMV.
21:14 <quadir> Rathisponge: yeah, that line in the intro about 'We promised never to do it again, but I'd do anything to get my brother his body again'
21:14 <Rathisponge> Guilt was a big theme in this amv as well. In the lyrics of the song, the singer mentions I hear the silence, preaching the blame. The creator also points out that the brother would do anything to get his brothers body back.
21:15 <Rathisponge> Yah , I think that was both a mix of love and guilt quadir.
21:15 <quadir> Rathisponge: then when they keep recutting to their childhood together as they seem to struggle into deeper and deeper grim situations, I thought you really got a feeling of how far their love and dedication has brought them
21:15 <DriftRoot> I'd like to know how much sense this AMV would make if you watched it without the song. Would it make more sense, or less?
21:15 <Rathisponge> I agree.
21:16 <orethrius> Simple enough, mute the audio and tell us. ;)
21:16 <quadir> teya: I don't think you're missing anything
21:16 <teya> but.. it's a whole package
21:16 * DriftRoot is watching it without audio at the moment
21:16 <G_Q> DriftRoot: Er... none.
21:16 <Rathisponge> Science and Religion were two big themes that I found present throughout the amv.
21:16 <Fall_Child42> let's see if we can pin down the plot and themes without using words resever for ambigious highschool essays
21:16 <orethrius> teya: Touche.
21:16 <teya> quadir: k
21:16 * DriftRoot gasps
21:16 <DriftRoot> It makes more sense.
21:16 <DriftRoot> :D
21:17 <quadir> Rathisponge: religion though?
21:17 <teya> howso religion?
21:17 <Fall_Child42> really I could find any theme in this video
21:17 <Rathisponge> The lyrics are literal in their meaning with regards to the amv when the singer says , find a way, the world is in our hands. I believe this proposes question of the afterlife, which seem to tie in closely with religion.
21:17 <Fall_Child42> which is a clear sign it means NOTHING
21:18 <DriftRoot> But it's not the afterlife...maybe the otherworld (our world) but in FMA there is no afterlife, really.
21:18 <Rave_Epic> But then you would have to see the series to know that ^
21:18 <Rave_Epic> Which confuses you more
21:18 <DriftRoot> FMA is, in a large sense, about understanding that there's something greater than oneself out there, if that's where you're getting the religion theme from.
21:18 <Fall_Child42> yes but we arn't discussing themes in FMA we are trying to find them in this video
21:18 <quadir> DriftRoot: I don't think the afterlife has to exist or not, the portal represents roughly the same thing in either case
21:19 <quadir> and Fall_Child42 is right there.
21:19 <DriftRoot> I was just trying to find the source of this religion feeling.
21:19 <Fall_Child42> and it being as random as it is ... I really dont see a story
21:19 <Rathisponge> In the beginning , the amv also mentions that science has never been able to create life. Which leads me to the question if science is unable to create life, maybe there is where a religious context that can explain it.
21:19 <Rave_Epic> Put simply. He tried to follow the story of the anime. He tried to throw in multiple moods to do it and on a overall scale, I'd say he did it to an extent.
21:19 <Rave_Epic> No, Alchemy can't recreate life.
21:19 <quadir> although series knowledge is often important in these kinds of videos, I though this video was interesting because it sets up pretty much all the knowledge you need to know in the intro to lift out the important themes
21:20 <Fall_Child42> Religion isn't a feeling
21:20 <DriftRoot> But it's never shown, in the AMV, any good life being created, alchemy or not. I'd like to have seen that.
21:20 <Fall_Child42> religion is a strict adherance to a set of rules
21:21 <Rathisponge> I believe the lyrics matched up quite nicely with the amv, in regard to theme.
21:21 <DriftRoot> quadir: but did it? Some people here who've never seen the series sound awfully confused.
21:21 <DriftRoot> Although maybe they're confused about specific events, not the themes.
21:21 <quadir> DriftRoot: I think they're expecting the story to be told in the same way throughout? I mean the intro is very linear and clear, the rest requires a lot more interpretation, especially if you haven't seen the series, or know it well
21:22 <quadir> it's easy to try to read too much into a specific scene choice when it's more giving you an idea about an overall progression
21:22 <Fall_Child42> Rathisponge: we havn't found a theme yet so how do you know the lyrics match
21:22 <Fall_Child42> and by found a theme
21:22 <Fall_Child42> i mean a STRONG DOMINANT THEME present through the ENTIRE video
21:22 <quadir> I would liken it to the 'training montage' in 'sports' movies, the actual elements of the montage are not that important
21:23 <quadir> as much as the journey
21:23 <DriftRoot> So how can this AMV present all the knowledge you need to get the series' themes if "the rest requires a lot more interpretation?" Maybe it's all there, but it sounds like it was as clear as it could have been.
21:23 <Niotex> so no domestic voilance
21:23 <teya> huh.. i got the idea that since science couldn't do it, alchemy would. and.. i see alchemy as magic. not religion.
21:23 <Rathisponge> I have found several themes that I believe match with the lyrics on several occurences.
21:23 <DriftRoot> Actually, it's the opposite, science and alchemy are the same, in FMA.
21:24 <Rathisponge> For instance, I hear the silence, and preaching the blame. I believe this is repesentitive of guilt.
21:24 <quadir> Fall_Child42: I would say the main theme is guilt and determination towards life and death
21:24 <orethrius> Um, I just have to say this as I'm watching it now, I'm getting definite themes of loss and reclamation; and also for a struggle for existence, a battle for survival as it were.
21:24 <orethrius> Just my initial reaction.
21:24 <quadir> but Fall_Child42 is right that you can't just pick one scene and go 'oh thats the theme!'
21:24 <Fall_Child42> you know what
21:24 <Fall_Child42> I got the
21:24 <Rathisponge> I agree quadir, I found guilt to be a fairly big theme which the creator goes back to on several occurences.
21:24 <Fall_Child42> theme
21:24 <Fall_Child42> Totally
21:24 <quadir> it has to be something that continues on and on
21:25 <orethrius> Well
21:25 <Fall_Child42> Oedipus Complex
21:25 <orethrius> lol
21:25 <teya> i hate the word theme from highschool.. i never seemed to get it
21:25 <Fall_Child42> DUDE I hit it
21:25 <Otohiko> YES
21:25 <DriftRoot> "We must be the change we wish to see..." now there's a theme. Ed realizing that he's got to rearrange his priorities and his beliefs if he wants to accomplish what everyone says is impossible.
21:25 <Niotex> OMG YES
21:25 <dj_ultima> Sorry to say that without knowing the series, I guess I just don't get much out of this video. It's nicely edited, but I can't get a main theme other than "drama."
21:25 <orethrius> Sorry, I just thought that was out of place, lol
21:25 <inthesto> I WANNA RESSURECT MY MOM SO I CAN DO HER
21:25 <Fall_Child42> OEDIPUS
21:25 <Orwell> marshmellows
21:25 <orethrius> Very nicely done.
21:25 <G_Q> QFT
21:25 * orethrius claps
21:25 <DriftRoot> oy
21:25 <orethrius> Omigod I brought back my mom as a pseudo-living being.
21:26 <Fall_Child42> everything makes sense now
21:26 <orethrius> Shouldn't have clapped.
21:26 <quadir> Fall_Child42: please be serious.
21:26 <orethrius> Seriously though, I'm getting a definite quest for survival.
21:26 <orethrius> I mean, throughout the video, what happens?
21:26 <Rathisponge> Where do you see that from orehtrius?
21:26 <orethrius> Things are lost, things are reclaimed.
21:26 <Rathisponge> What scenes presented?
21:26 <DriftRoot> All the death, maybe?
21:26 <orethrius> Yes
21:27 <orethrius> The life lost, the lives reclaimed
21:27 <Rathisponge> So the continual scenes of death, and struggle for survival?
21:27 <orethrius> I think that last scene is key
21:27 <DriftRoot> Again, sacrifice...paying the price, which is what Alchemy is all about.
21:27 <orethrius> Exactly
21:27 <orethrius> Except for one thing
21:27 <orethrius> That last scene is really key
21:27 <Rathisponge> Ah I can see where you could derive that from.
21:28 <orethrius> What was Al trying to do with that fallen child?
21:28 <orethrius> What did Ed stop him from doing?
21:28 <orethrius> He saved his life, and really helped him survive.
21:28 <DriftRoot> I don't remember...trying to save someone, I think, who was already lost.
21:28 <orethrius> Yeah
21:28 <orethrius> That's a definite tie to the series itself
21:28 <DriftRoot> The theme being that Al was never completely lost...but the brothers had to learn to let go of what HAD been lost, namely their mother.
21:28 <orethrius> I mean, a common bit is that Ed is the emotionally weaker of the two.
21:28 <orethrius> Not Ed, Al, sorry. XD
21:28 <Rave_Epic> ...the whole damn video revolves around the story of the anime. It IS definite. it's THERE.
21:28 <DriftRoot> Big time.
21:29 <orethrius> DriftRoot: That's a little more profound than my overview. :)
21:29 <quadir> DriftRoot: is it their mother? or within the context of the video, his brother's body?
21:29 <Rathisponge> I can see what you mean by survival through the lyrics as well, when she sings that free our minds, find a way, this is not the end
21:29 <DriftRoot> I majored in impressive BS in college, I can't help myself. :D
21:29 <orethrius> I need to bring in my dogs, sorry, br
21:29 <orethrius> *brb
21:30 <DriftRoot> quadir: it's not their mother. That scene took place in the movie. I don't remember who it was.
21:30 <quadir> do we have a prevailing theme?
21:30 <DriftRoot> It wasn't his brother's body, it was someone else...
21:30 <Fall_Child42> Not really
21:30 <Rathisponge> If I were to say one theme that dominates, it would be Guilt for me.
21:31 <quadir> Rathisponge: for both brothers or just ed?
21:31 <DriftRoot> I'd say the major theme is never giving up.
21:31 <Rathisponge> Is Ed the one who has lost the arm and a leg?
21:31 <quadir> DriftRoot: so determination of ed to fufill his dream?
21:31 <quadir> Rathisponge: yeah.
21:31 <quadir> Rathisponge: al is the one who lost his body.
21:31 <Rathisponge> Then yes, primarily guilt from Ed.
21:31 <DriftRoot> For them all, but Ed's determination is what the editor seemed most intent on showcasing.
21:32 <Fall_Child42> I say the theme is a male child's unconscious desire for the exclusive love of his mother.
21:32 <quadir> I'm getting that too and I've seen very little of the anime
21:32 <teya> Fall_Child42: seriously?
21:32 <Fall_Child42> yes.
21:32 <DriftRoot> @_@
21:32 <Rathisponge> Where did you get that from Fall_Child42? What scenes?
21:32 <teya> i don't see that at all
21:32 <quadir> Fall_Child42: how is it presented?
21:32 <DriftRoot> They barely SHOW their mother!
21:32 <Fall_Child42> yes because their mom is dead
21:32 <teya> i thought it was all about one brother protecting the other
21:32 <DriftRoot> So...?
21:32 <quadir> sigh
21:33 <Fall_Child42> that dread locked woman was the substitute mother figure
21:33 <Fall_Child42> and as it said in the beginning he would do ANYTHING to get his mom back
21:33 <quadir> it is true the dread locked woman is featured a lot
21:33 <Fall_Child42> because he wanted her love.
21:33 <quadir> and in a nurturing role
21:33 <DriftRoot> THAT was a little overdone, IMO. THey weren't looking to her as a subsitute mother that way.
21:33 <quadir> almost all the way to the end
21:33 <Rathisponge> So as a surrogate mother?
21:33 <Rave_Epic> in the series they might not have, Drift.
21:34 <Fall_Child42> yeah it's common in these things to have a mother figure rhather than a biologiccal mother
21:34 <DriftRoot> Maybe this is a case of where it's better not to have seen the series to "get" the mother complex. If there even is one. :)
21:34 <Rave_Epic> But in the show and from the haymaker he recieves...
21:34 <Rave_Epic> er..video
21:35 <Rave_Epic> I don't think there should be this much confusion over the theme of a video. I can understand if the video is trippy and needs some actual thought, but this just seems like multiple themes were threw in and it wasn't executed the way it could've been.
21:35 <DriftRoot> I looked at what's-her-name in the video more like an example to the boys, her strength, her morals, her determination.
21:35 <DriftRoot> If that's a mother figure, then so be it.
21:35 <quadir> they show Ed saving Al after the failed attempt at resurecting their mother at least 3 times in the video
21:35 <teya> i thought it was pretty basic..
21:36 <Rave_Epic> Exactly, Teya.
21:36 <teya> why the confusion?
21:36 <quadir> and the last line of the intro is that Ed will do anything to get Al's body back
21:36 <DriftRoot> She's NOT their mother!
21:36 <Fall_Child42> She's there mother figure
21:36 <N> damn.. I missed it :O
21:36 <DriftRoot> quadir: It bugged me to no end that we see Al, all nice and healthy, after hearing how he's bodyless.
21:36 * DriftRoot mutters
21:36 <quadir> DriftRoot: hm, for me it just kept reinforcing for Ed his goal
21:37 <quadir> what kept driving him on
21:37 <quadir> and since I hadn't seen the anime a lot of the 'training montage' was lost on me in actual meaning for events
21:37 <DriftRoot> Yeah, but the time lapse messed it up. We see Al all healthy and grownup after seeing him as a little boy sucked into the gate.
21:37 <Rathisponge> I agree quadir
21:37 <quadir> so the reoccuring reminder, more like a flashback
21:37 <DriftRoot> I'd rather have seen him as a kid...
21:38 <quadir> DriftRoot: it's like the shot of his brother in the suit of armor in the intro
21:38 <quadir> it establishes that h'es there, in the suit
21:38 <quadir> but really he's gone, and we know that
21:38 <quadir> but Ed still sees his brother
21:38 <quadir> not as he was
21:38 <quadir> but as he is
21:38 <quadir> so seeing Al grown up didn't really bother me at all
21:39 <DriftRoot> But an older, healthier, post armor-saved version of his brother. Again, it's hard to imagine how this video comes across if you haven't seen this series, so I'm not sure how to interpret it from that point of view.
21:39 <quadir> I wasn't so invested in the actual anime to tie it to whatever scene it came from
21:39 <orethrius> Well, about this being "just like the series"
21:39 <orethrius> I think it's more of an antithesis
21:39 <orethrius> Stop me if I'm using the wrong word here
21:39 <Niotex> quadir your looking too deep into this
21:39 <quadir> orethrius: I will after I look it up lol
21:39 <DriftRoot> antithesis - opposite and against
21:39 <orethrius> In that Ed pulls Al away from the fate Ed once went through
21:40 <Fall_Child42> here's what i have summed up. We are having a very hard time determining a solid consistant theme, which tells me if there was one it wasn't exacuted properly. #2 We that have not seen the anime have no clue whats going on, so therefor a seven minute long story driven video didn't convey the story well. #3 I think quadir you are expecting too much from us and thusly we are trying to read far too much into a video that is simply a recap of the Moth
21:40 <orethrius> Were this to have happened at the beginning of the series - were someone to have pulled Ed back from reviving his mother
21:40 * DriftRoot agrees
21:40 <orethrius> There wouldn't *be* a series.
21:40 <G_Q> #4 We who HAVE seen the anime have no clue whats going on, so therefor a seven minute long story driven video didn't convey the story well.
21:40 <DriftRoot> That's not antithesis
21:41 <Fall_Child42> #3 I think quadir you are expecting too much from us and thusly we are trying to read far too much into a video that is simply a recap of the Mother arc from the majority of FMA.
21:41 <orethrius> *wah* *wah* Mom's dead, moving on now.
21:41 <DriftRoot> We know what's going on, we're just debating whether the editor presented it in the best way.
21:41 <Fall_Child42> thats a no.
21:41 <orethrius> If I knew the alternate anime title, I'd present that instead.
21:41 <orethrius> hrm
21:42 <orethrius> Well, it would annihilate the entire premise of the series.
21:42 <orethrius> So whatever that's called.
21:43 <DriftRoot> Perhaps the problem is that FMA is full of many themes and this video presents a lot of them. We who have seen the series pick out the themes we most saw in the series, those who haven't seen FMA are kind of getting thematic overload.
21:43 <quadir> g_q / Fall_Child42 / Niotex are having a hard time seeing a theme or progression, so I'm not willing to just shrug it off
21:43 <orethrius> Fair_Child42: I get where you're coming from, it's definitely driven by seeing this kind of story before.
21:43 <DriftRoot> All right, what themes were in the series that we can pick out of this video?
21:43 <Niotex> thank you
21:43 <quadir> but in so far as the video establishes a theme, that it does or does not accomplish or present well, I think we've covered that
21:44 <Fall_Child42> DriftRoot I think the problem is noone quite grasps the concept of what a literary theme is.
21:44 <quadir> it's just a question if the main theme came accross for most people
21:44 <DriftRoot> Oh.
21:44 <orethrius> I wouldn't necessarily say it's impossible to get the theme without seeing the series.
21:44 <orethrius> It's just not patently obvious without it.
21:44 <DriftRoot> Jeez, well quadir should have defined theme first, I guess!!
21:44 <teya> i got _a_ theme without seeing the series
21:44 <orethrius> Yes?
21:44 <teya> might not be the same one, is all
21:44 <orethrius> Well, what did you see?
21:45 <Orwell> It establishes themes of remorse through scenes that work with one another, loss of limbs and family. And a attempt to get it back. It's execution beyond this basic theme though works only for those who've seen the series, IMO.
21:45 <quadir> I didn't think lifting a main theme would be a big problem given the intro, really
21:45 <orethrius> Bear in mind I came in kinda late.
21:45 <DriftRoot> That's what I'm saying, there are so many themes in FMA, and lots of room for interpretation...
21:45 <orethrius> Orwell: Well said.
21:45 <Orwell> There are other themes, but that's that main one
21:45 <quadir> Orwell: nod, I'd agree with that.
21:45 <quadir> Orwell: I thought we had established that
21:45 <Orwell> Perhaps, I'm trying to watch this again for specific comments, but all I see is scanlines
21:45 <DriftRoot> IMO, the main theme in this video is - again - the ability to carry on and succeed in the face of terrible odds.
21:45 <Orwell> and unicorn fucking
21:46 <orethrius> Some of us were out taking care of family pets, my bad. ;)
21:46 <quadir> and not really seeing any further things that are series dependant, that DriftRoot for example sees a lot of, I though just that main theme was really rewarding in this video
21:46 <Fall_Child42> for example a theme is not "guilt"
21:46 <Fall_Child42> a theme is feuds and parental heavy-handedness in preventing young love from marrying are wicked.
21:46 <orethrius> Fair enough, guilt is really more of a feeling.
21:47 <orethrius> Hence why I said "struggle for survival" and not "remorse"
21:47 <DriftRoot> A theme might not be guilt, but it could be atonement. FMA is big, big BIG on atonement - which you need guilt for.
21:47 <orethrius> Also true.
21:47 <Fall_Child42> atonement is ALSO NOT A THEME
21:47 <DriftRoot> Yes it is!
21:47 <Niotex> ...
21:48 <orethrius> Fall_Child42: It's a potential driving factor behind a production.
21:48 <orethrius> What else is that but a theme? ;)
21:48 <Niotex> you people are mixing up emotions with themes
21:48 <DriftRoot> Batman - BATMAN is all about atonement. That's the theme of Batman.
21:48 <orethrius> Atonement is not an emotion, lol
21:48 <quadir> okay so BEYOND just a theme, it having been pretty well established by Orwell just a few seconds ago in less words
21:48 <orethrius> Vengeful fury is an emotion.
21:48 <quadir> what other things did people get from the video?
21:49 <Niotex> as is guilt
21:49 <orethrius> True
21:49 <Niotex> I wasnt talking about atonement in speciffic
21:49 <Rathisponge> I liked the pacing and flow of the amv.
21:49 <quadir> not knowing the anime and attributing the grown Al to seeing his "ghost", I found myself not really seeing him succeed at all
21:49 <Niotex> what pacing?
21:49 <quadir> he works and works and works
21:49 <DriftRoot> The atmosphere it set up was great.
21:49 <Fall_Child42> where is the pacing and flow?
21:49 <Niotex> it was all over the place
21:49 <quadir> but in the end it just gets cut off
21:49 <Rathisponge> If that is what you mean by other things =p
21:49 <orethrius> Well
21:50 <DriftRoot> This AMV could have been a heck of a lot shorter and gotten the job done.
21:50 <orethrius> I didn't see where he failed
21:50 <Fall_Child42> you see this is what Orson wells was complaining about.
21:50 <quadir> I didn't say failed
21:50 <Fall_Child42> we are using language that does not mean anything
21:50 <orethrius> He pulled his brother back from making his same mistakes
21:50 <quadir> but didn't succeed
21:50 <quadir> it's like a treadmill
21:50 <Fall_Child42> atmosphere and flow
21:50 <quadir> and he's running towards his goal more and more
21:50 <Fall_Child42> what is this?
21:50 <orethrius> The measure of success is subjective.
21:50 <DriftRoot> Around 2:30 was a nice high, 2/3 mark...the middle was a lot of extraneous stuff, then the end was good.
21:50 <quadir> then it just fades out and he's still on it
21:50 <orethrius> He pulled his brother out of his rut
21:50 <orethrius> I think that's a pretty bold act on its own.
21:51 <DriftRoot> Although if you blinked at the end, you might have missed it...this AMV could be very depressing.
21:51 <quadir> I'm watching the ending of the video right now
21:51 <orethrius> TRUE! XD
21:51 <quadir> and you have the huge diagram over the boies, them kicking more ass against teacher figure
21:51 <orethrius> Again, the struggle against impossible odds.
21:51 <quadir> Ed dying, his brother doing something then everyone alive again
21:51 <orethrius> Okay, let me put it this way.
21:52 <orethrius> Anyone familiar with AA?
21:52 <DriftRoot> There were a lot of happy, brotherly scenes that could have been added in at the end, make the message of the song match what actually happens.
21:52 <DriftRoot> AA?
21:52 <orethrius> I've had relatives in it..
21:52 <orethrius> There's something that they use in their meetings.
21:52 <DriftRoot> Oh, AA. I had an uncle in it, and a few more who should have been.
21:53 <orethrius> God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference.
21:53 <DriftRoot> Yeap.
21:53 <orethrius> You see Ed struggling against impossible odds as a demonstration of courage.
21:53 <orethrius> Courage to save his brother, courage to challenge the norms.
21:53 <DriftRoot> Yah.
21:53 <quadir> sure, but how does this tie into the ending?
21:53 <DriftRoot> Courage to sacrifice himself.
21:53 <quadir> it's like full pace until the last second
21:53 <Rathisponge> I can see what you mean by courage orethrius.
21:53 <orethrius> You see Ed as serene.
21:53 <quadir> where's the climax?
21:53 <DriftRoot> You blink, you miss it, like I said.
21:53 <orethrius> You see that he's realised there are some things he cannot change.
21:54 <Rathisponge> The ending did feel rather abrupt.
21:54 <orethrius> He's wiser, so he pulls Al out of taking the same path he did.
21:54 <DriftRoot> And given how back and forth he was with his footage, that scene could have been from the beginning of the series, for all anyone who hasn't seen FMA knows.
21:54 <orethrius> It's *really* dependent on the series though.
21:54 <orethrius> So no, I wouldn't say it stands on its own.
21:55 <Fall_Child42> yeah but it goes back and forth through time so fast and so much
21:55 <quadir> I think I know how Orwell / fall / nio / g_q must feel, cause now I'm lost ;)
21:55 <Fall_Child42> without cues that it was memory or anything
21:55 <DriftRoot> lol
21:55 <Fall_Child42> it lost me completely
21:55 <orethrius> Tarantino on crack.
21:55 <orethrius> Let's put it like that.
21:55 <DriftRoot> It wasn't a memory, that's the thing!!!
21:55 * teya blinks
21:55 <orethrius> It was something he lived through.
21:55 <quadir> DriftRoot: back series knowledge demon!
21:55 <DriftRoot> You know, there was a problem with the series and the movie, they both left us hanging.
21:55 <orethrius> Like a swing between the present and the future, etc.
21:56 <Niotex> what tarantino movies have you been watching...
21:56 <DriftRoot> It's not necessarily the editor's fault nothing was concluded.
21:56 <Niotex> because
21:56 <Niotex> that is NOT tarantino
21:56 <quadir> DriftRoot: it was though
21:56 <orethrius> Niotex: Pulp Fiction, need I say more?
21:56 <quadir> DriftRoot: even if the anime doesn't, HE can
21:56 <Niotex> thats like calling spielberg the director of pokemon
21:56 <quadir> unless of course he wants the video to stay canon
21:56 <DriftRoot> Yeah, but he'd have had to rearrange the rest of his footage.
21:56 <quadir> but then he could at least die it down slower
21:56 <orethrius> Except Spielberg never did Pokemon. ;)
21:56 <Fall_Child42> Pulp fiction did not have a linear story line but it HAD a story
21:56 <Niotex> pulp fiction has nothing at all to do with this..
21:56 <quadir> guys stay on topic
21:56 <Fall_Child42> and completely understandable one when you got to the end of the movie
21:57 <DriftRoot> It was understandable, but it may not have been the best way to wrap up this AMV, is what I think I'm trying to say.
21:57 <orethrius> Pulp Fiction does the same kind of swing, but to a lesser degree.
21:57 <DriftRoot> Maybe.
21:57 <orethrius> That's a tangent anyways.
21:57 <DriftRoot> I don't like dissecting AMVs I like this much. It's depressing.
21:57 <orethrius> Let me slip back off that tangent there.
21:58 <orethrius> It was simple enough to slip onto it.
21:58 <orethrius> Well
21:58 <orethrius> I'm looking over the initial briefing on the chat
21:58 <orethrius> *character*
21:58 <DriftRoot> Eh?
21:58 <orethrius> So I'm addressing his maturity.
21:58 <quadir> those were example
21:59 <orethrius> You see him develop as a human being, and mature emotionally by the end.
21:59 <quadir> I thought the main theme was pretty straight forward, and orwell pulled it out nicely for everyone
21:59 <DriftRoot> What was it again?
21:59 <quadir> didn't think much time would be spent there
21:59 <Fall_Child42> What did orwell say?
21:59 <DriftRoot> not unicorn fucking, I hope
21:59 <quadir> 21:45 <Orwell> It establishes themes of remorse through scenes that work with one another, loss of limbs and family. And a attempt to get it back. It's execution beyond this basic theme though works only for those who've seen the series, IMO.
21:59 <orethrius> lol
22:00 <DriftRoot> I think most of us were saying the same thing in other ways. :)
22:00 <quadir> the important part being 'and a attempt to get it back.'
22:00 <orethrius> Okay, I call it "survival", but "to-ma-toe to-mah-toe" I suppose.
22:00 <quadir> DriftRoot: yeah, just nice to have it clear.
22:00 <DriftRoot> Atonement - making up for your sins, in Ed's case, getting back Al's body.
22:00 <orethrius> Or if you go with Quayle, "tomatoe"
22:00 <quadir> but we're BEYOND theme now
22:00 <quadir> I hope
22:00 <quadir> please? ;)
22:01 <DriftRoot> YEs
22:01 <orethrius> Sorry
22:01 <orethrius> I can never resist a good jab at the Danster
22:01 <Fall_Child42> yeah. I'm done with a video that i feel is simply a poorly executed recap of FMA
22:01 <quadir> we ate up most of the discussion on theme, it's too bad, would of been nice to explore other elements but we ARE moving on now
22:01 <DriftRoot> You said we couldn't explore other elements!
22:02 <quadir> I do hope people will continue exploring other elements in the thread during the week
22:02 <Fall_Child42> you mine like beat synch?
22:02 <quadir> whatever you want fall
22:02 <DriftRoot> -_-
22:02 <quadir> last thoughts on the vid?
22:03 <DriftRoot> A nice FMA video that's questionably presented...in terms of how well a non FMA viewer would comprehend it.
22:03 <orethrius> Nice message... lol
22:03 <Rathisponge> I enjoyed the AMV very much. I think it did a good job and was very interesting to analyze.
22:03 <orethrius> Talk about Oedipus complex
22:03 <quadir> I was really suprised at how well the intro set up the vid, something for me that was random action video ended up being a lot more meaningful. it's not a masterpiece but I really enjoyed it and thought I got something out of it
22:03 <orethrius> quadir: Same here.
22:04 <DriftRoot> This AMV was one of the best I've seen use the beginning of the song for credits...and I'm not talking about this big text blocks, either.
22:04 <quadir> that's the pro
22:04 <DriftRoot> I had a beef with the level of writing, but I'll save my comments for my op.
22:04 <teya> i liked the intro, too
22:04 <teya> and the anthem-type music
22:04 <Rathisponge> Yah I agree, I liked the introduction as well.
22:04 <quadir> clearly not everyone "got" the video
22:04 <Rave_Epic> Besides the overall theme being buried in tons of other themes, I'd say it was a good vid.
22:05 <teya> gets you all.. riled up for the vid
22:05 <quadir> or even liked it, at that.
22:05 <Rathisponge> I agree teya.
22:05 <orethrius> Well, perhaps it was not aimed at a general audience, but to fans of the series. ;)

This week we started an exploration into non-technical elements of a video in the discussion, starting with theme. As this was the first week we've tried this, we got a bit stuck on that one. Hopefully next week we can cover a major theme but move on to other non-technical elements and fit more into the discussion. Hope to see you all then.

[Greggus1]

I will pay FC to participate in this every week. That was very hilarious.

Also, sorry, I forgot it was on >.<

[The Origonal Head Hunter]

needs the pimpage.

[quadir]

needs the pimpage.

hi Hunter, I'm glad you decided to post. I do want to point out this isn't an announcement thread though, so you tell us what you thought about the actual video though?

Thanks

[quadir]

Okay so the talk didn't really go anywhere, but you can definitely go places with this video. One aspect that I think really bears mentioning is how much Al (the guy in the suit of armour for those who don't know the anime) character comes across in this video, as he's so often just an aside in FMA vids to Ed (guy with the metal arm or ginny [do I have that right?] the token female).

We mentioned it a bit in the theme discussion, that while the video seems to be about Ed's guilt and coping strategy over the loss of his brother's body, there is a lot of development that goes on with Al that is very different. Story wise, Al shares the guilt in the loss of their mother and the shame in trying to resurrect her, but I always got the feeling he was the shy not-100% sure "okay because you know best Ed" type of character, and the blame for their actions rests much more with Ed, although I'm not sure how much Al would assume himself.

He must feel thankful to Ed for saving his life, but at the same time Ed is not the one stuck in a suit of armour, incapable of living a normal life, and this came through the anime.

In the video though we mostly explore Al through Ed's eyes, seeing him loose his body over and over again, even his metalic one.

Since I've only seen the beginning of the show and deciding to pull the wool over my eyes during DriftRoot's movie plot spoilers, I very much viewed the reoccurance of a "whole" Al as more a projection of the person he is within the suit of armor, so much so that in one shot in the video, you see Al standing inside the suit of armor and it's such a powerful shot it really stayed with me after watching the video. The quest to make his brother whole again in this video really comes across as Ed's quest, when if anything it should be Al's. But Al isn't really in a state to be able to fight his own battles as well, so I'm not sure if saying that only Ed cares about this quest is accurate.

DriftRoot pointed this out but the video is very tied to the anime. Which is why the text intro was such a powerful device to try and bridge the gap with people who had not seen the show, and discussion of the video seems to tread a lot on a discussion of the anime itself.

In the end though Al seems to take charge a lot more, and be the one doing things, and Ed is the one who is helpless and needs help. Not having seen those scenes in the movies, I'm not sure what they mean canon wise, but within the video itself I can't help but see the role reversal here as Al emerges as the dominant character despite being very much a sub to begin with.

Am I way off here?

[DriftRoot]

Since I've only seen the beginning of the show and deciding to pull the wool over my eyes during DriftRoot's movie plot spoilers

This AMV is basically 150% proof spoiler, it never even crossed my mind to withhold information to protect other people's chastity.

Am I way off here?

Nope. This AMV just focused in pretty tightly on that aspect of their relationship, which easily gives the impression that the series did the same, when it really did not. Al and Ed both act very juvenile in many situations, right up to the end.

My concern with this AMV (or any) being plundered so deeply for meaning is that when you do this, you're either assuming the series itself has awe-inspiring levels of philosophic fodder (think Evangelion) or it doesn't, but someone (the editor) decided that it does (or could) given the right treatment. Full Metal Alchemist is not Moby Dick, so whether there's actually some kind of real overarching theme or message that one can insist is THE way to interpret it is consequently up for heated discussion, which was the result of that night's session.

You can extrapolate all kinds of towering messages and meanings from FMA given the right excuse, but this is what I fondly term (as AMV Review people know) impressive B.S. It's based on some kind of nugget of truth, so no one can really can call it an outright lie; you can debate it for hours on end without getting anywhere (other than ever more caught up in how fantastic it would be if it actually were valid); and it can earn you great grades on your essay exams ... but it's no substitute for the real thing.

Wow quadir, see what you did? I'm reliving my first semester in Grade 11 AP English where the teacher gave me a D and asked me if I'd actually READ Moby Dick, because my essays on it were so "wrong." Well excuse ME if I was the ONLY one in the class who actually read the book, not Cliff's Notes. To this day I wish I'd said that to her...

[quadir]

You have a point about BS, but I think you are glossing over two things.

An AMV can take an element that can be found in an anime, and emphasise it, so in terms of analyzing the AMV, that level of analysis is justified, even if the relationship or theme was not found to that degree in the original anime.

Similarly, in Alternate Universe (AU) vids, the AMV editor could create new relationships or themes, which is the ultimate BS, since they don't exist at all in the original anime.

Discussing either of these things is AOK when watching the video, because you're not really discussing the anime directly, but this interpretation of it found in the video, so it may not be as much BS as you think, and much more worthwile.

[quadir]

p.s. The review images are broken for a day, I moved my server and the IP changed, it will take 1-2 days for everyone's dns servers to pickup the change. When your ISP does they should reappear.

[DriftRoot]

Discussing either of these things is AOK when watching the video, because you're not really discussing the anime directly, but this interpretation of it found in the video, so it may not be as much BS as you think, and much more worthwile.

If we're going to discuss someone's interpretation of something, we may want to know ahead of time what it is they're interpreting. We spent a lot of time trying to figure this out, a process complicated by the fact that some people hadn't seen the series. This is why analysis of the themes in the anime cropped up - it was an attempt to establish a foundation for what the AMV was interpreting before getting involved in a discussion of HOW the interpretation was handled. Hence my B.S. rant, because there were no hard facts presented about what the editor was attempting to interpret, we had to come up with our own theories and move forward on the assumption that those theories are canon, when in fact they aren't, we just just came up with what seemed most plausible and took it from there.

Maybe an an "If p, then q" format would be more appropriate for such review sessions:
If the AMV interpreted themes of guilt found in FMA, then how did he do this?
If the AMV interpreted themes of maturity found in FMA, then how did he do that?
If the AMV interpreted themes of sacrifice found in FMA, then how did he do THAT?

This way we all start on the same page, and there's still opportunity for people to bring up other themes they may have seen and how they felt they were presented without muddling the focus of the discussion.