The Technical Terms of downloaded footage.

Unfound · Post by **Unfound** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:28 am

w00t! I made a worthwhile topic. *Ahem* Alright, here's a different subject. Say an anime was released in Japan that you really liked, however, the Japanese crowd didn't go for it and due to the low ratings, it never got released on DVD and dubbing companies decided not to bring it over here. However, there's a fansub site that's out there that has all the episodes you want, but they're all in DivX format (Obviously). Now, this to me is ethically ok because if you honestly can't obtain the footage any other way (Most of the time live audio can only be obtained this way) then it should be alright. Now, I'm not speaking on terms of quality, so let's not get into that. I'll open the floor with this arguement: Is it or is it not ok to use downloaded footage when it is TRULY the only way to obtain it?

inthesto · Post by **inthesto** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:12 pm

Wow. this is just like Star Ocean EX.

VegettoEX · Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:17 pm

Unfound wrote:Is it or is it not ok to use downloaded footage when it is TRULY the only way to obtain it?

Sure... if you pay the licensing fees to obtain it.

There's really no argument here. If you don't legally own it, you can't legally use it. Just because there's "no way" to get it doesn't automatically mean it's in the public domain.

If you're going to use these downloaded things, use them, and don't make a big deal out of it. However, the show of effort's going to be reflected in the visual quality, and if YOU don't care, why should WE?

Voices_Of_Ryan · Post by **Voices_Of_Ryan** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:19 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Unfound wrote:Is it or is it not ok to use downloaded footage when it is TRULY the only way to obtain it?
Sure... if you pay the licensing fees to obtain it.

There's really no argument here. If you don't legally own it, you can't legally use it. Just because there's "no way" to get it doesn't automatically mean it's in the public domain.

If you're going to use these downloaded things, use them, and don't make a big deal out of it. However, the show of effort's going to be reflected in the visual quality, and if YOU don't care, why should WE?

...

Good point.

Akai Rurouni · Post by **Akai Rurouni** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:55 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Unfound wrote:Is it or is it not ok to use downloaded footage when it is TRULY the only way to obtain it?
Sure... if you pay the licensing fees to obtain it.

There's really no argument here. If you don't legally own it, you can't legally use it. Just because there's "no way" to get it doesn't automatically mean it's in the public domain.

If you're going to use these downloaded things, use them, and don't make a big deal out of it. However, the show of effort's going to be reflected in the visual quality, and if YOU don't care, why should WE?

Well, I don't know. I'd say that it's the same a downloading to watch it. So if you don't think that this is okay to download (without paying for the license) to watch it, then it's not okay to use in an AMV either. But if you think downloading fansubs to watch is okay, then they're okay to make an AMV out of too. Now whether it's ethical to download them for watching is still an open question; I just wanted to make the point that it's the same (ethically and legally).

VegettoEX · Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:09 pm

Akai Rurouni wrote:Well, I don't know. I'd say that it's the same a downloading to watch it. So if you don't think that this is okay to download (without paying for the license) to watch it, then it's not okay to use in an AMV either. But if you think downloading fansubs to watch is okay, then they're okay to make an AMV out of too. Now whether it's ethical to download them for watching is still an open question; I just wanted to make the point that it's the same (ethically and legally).

"Ethically" and "legally" are two completely separate distinct matters.

"Ethics" are up to the individual, and can differ from person to person. The law is the law. You can contest it, but you'll lose. Badly.

You don't get to download things just because you want them. Or think you can't get them any other way. You don't own them.

It doesn't matter what "I'd say" or what "you'd say" or what "he'd say" or what "she'd say" or what "they think." Things cost money. If you want them legally, you pay for them. In this case, it also vastly improves your visual quality.

Akai Rurouni · Post by **Akai Rurouni** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:19 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Akai Rurouni wrote:Well, I don't know. I'd say that it's the same a downloading to watch it. So if you don't think that this is okay to download (without paying for the license) to watch it, then it's not okay to use in an AMV either. But if you think downloading fansubs to watch is okay, then they're okay to make an AMV out of too. Now whether it's ethical to download them for watching is still an open question; I just wanted to make the point that it's the same (ethically and legally).
"Ethically" and "legally" are two completely separate distinct matters.

"Ethics" are up to the individual, and can differ from person to person. The law is the law. You can contest it, but you'll lose. Badly.

You don't get to download things just because you want them. Or think you can't get them any other way. You don't own them.

It doesn't matter what "I'd say" or what "you'd say" or what "he'd say" or what "she'd say" or what "they think." Things cost money. If you want them legally, you pay for them. In this case, it also vastly improves your visual quality.

What's more, there's a difference between "ethics" and "morals". But I won't go into that, since you're focusing on the "legal" aspect.

But my point (which I may not have made well) still holds in the legal arena, I believe. Using downlaoded footage in an AMV would be legally the same as downloading the same footage just to watch it. (Probably illegal both ways in all cases, but that still qualifies as "the same".)

However, IIRC the original question asked about ethics. And that's fair, because I believe there are many here on the forums who do not believe in the law as an end itself, mearly as a mean to another end. So is it _ethical_?

VegettoEX · Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:23 pm

Akai Rurouni wrote:But my point (which I may not have made well) still holds in the legal arena, I believe. Using downlaoded footage in an AMV would be legally the same as downloading the same footage just to watch it. (Probably illegal both ways in all cases, but that still qualifies as "the same".) :wink:

This is true. I somehow doubt the copyright holders really care whether you're simply watching it or making things from it; the points remains that you shouldn't have it in the first place. Then again, part of the AMV scene is distributing what you make, which is... well... worse. If the Magic Law Fairy had to go after either someone who made their videos from DVDs they own or someone who made a video from some DivX files they downloaded, there's an obvious choice.

Akai Rurouni wrote:However, IIRC the original question asked about ethics. And that's fair, because I believe there are many here on the forums who do not believe in the law as an end itself, mearly as a mean to another end. So is it _ethical_?

Anime fans will do everything in their power to convince themselves that what they're doing is "ethical." Do with that as you will.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:54 pm

Arigatomyna wrote:
Voices_Of_Ryan wrote:Some people choose to make the desision weather to buy a new pc or dvds and cd's.
And don't forget the age. Most people here have parents to buy them computers - but their parents aren't so happy to dish out $30 a pop for dvds on a kid who doesn't work. That leads them to the old "I don't have any money so I have to download" kick - the computers are incidental as gifts from parents who thought they'd be used for eductation (not anime watching).

This is why it's best to get into the hobby when you're old enough to work.

If you do get into it when you're alot younger, better start mowing those lawns and rationing allowance and birthday money.

Unfound · Post by **Unfound** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:24 pm

AMVs are illegal on the re-distribution part of the case, that's a fact. However, since we're doing something illegal (by law) anyway, would using fansubs also be in the same department? We didn't BUY the rights to use the footage from the anime DVDs, we just bought the DVDs. On this basis, using Fansubs is just as bad as using DVDs, wouldn't you agree?