Action synch guide(s)

[SQ]

Right now, there a two (notable) action synch-only guides. (Yeas, EADFAG contains a section, but well hidden and quite difficult to understand).

Both guides are in User tips and tricks on the "Guides" page, near the bottom. Madbunny's "How to Make an Action Video 101" and SQ's "How to Action Synch."

My questions, which could be concieved as rude, are purely in curiosity and not meant to threaten/make fun og/insult/annoy anyone. So if you take that attitude toward the questions, and plan to flame/spam/joke around/mock me in this thread, please just don't post at all, because I'd like this to be a serious topic.

How do you guys view the action synch guides? Are they good? Do they suck? Could you do better? Do they need to be updated?
Do you think people are using/have used them? Have YOU used them? Were they any help? Do you think they are helpful, or just a waste of time and space?

What would be a good format for future action/lyric synch guides? Or do you think these guides shouldn't be around, and that people need to learn this stuff themselves?

I was wondering all the above and more since I submitted my guide. I'vve only linked ot it a few times on this site, and a hell of a lot more on other sites, but every time I do it seems egotistical, people aren't looking at it, and that when they do look at it, it isn't helping.

I was hoping by comparing the two synch-only guides, Madbunny's and mine, maybe there would be ways to better improve future guides or to update old guides, or just request that some of the suckage be taken down.

I've been reading through my own guide and I think I'm going somewhere with the "watch how it changes" format, but at the same time, I seem to be dictating how users should be making videos, and I don't want to seem like I'm doing that.

To be frank, there are far better people than I and madbunny who know a hell of a lot about action synch or know more, but we're the only ones who've made synch-specific guides. Why is this?

Any other "guide" related to synch(save EADFAG's section) pretty much points you too some good action synched videos and say "These are good. Watch forom them and learn" but really don't explain a whole lot as to why they're good and how to implement it.

I'd like some feedback on the synch-specific guides, and how you guys view them. Do they work, at all? Do you ever hand the link(s) out during Ops, QCs or in the forums? If so, which do you think is getting plugged more, and why?

I'm expecting some good comments, and I'm expecting some "Your guide sucks and it's an embarrassment to have on the site" comments, too. SO don't be afraid to say what you want, think, know, or feel - I'm not going to cry over it, and I'm sure madbunny won't either(if he actually gets those comments).

The only guides we truly talk about are the purely technical ones- "to solve problem A, use solution B." and we all know that these guides work, as they've been discussed, pimped, and used frequently.

But with other guides, like noobie guides and synch-specific guides, it seems they need more user important and feedback, because they're not really speaking for themselves about how good/bad they are.

[staces]

Personally, I don't think that action synch guides are very useful (not just yours or madbunnys, but the concept of having them at all). Things like capture, compression, audio and what not are very technical and there are certain ways to do them. It's just a process.

As for action (and lyric) synch, however, it seems to be something that each person develops on their own through watching lots of AMVs and developing an ear for what they like to synch. I know some people who like to match the vocals more, or the beat, or some like longer clips and some like lots of fast cuts. . . . I don't think that timing is something that you can be told how to do. After a few opinions of "too many lingering clips" or "hit the beats more" people generally get the idea.

I know that I've never read the guides but the quality (in syching and other areas) of my new vids compared to my first ones shows. It's just something you develop with time, I think. But that's just my opinion. =)

[BasharOfTheAges]

In all honesty you can only teach concept to a certain extent. The rest comes from inate skill, practice, and time -- as it should. Teaching someone how to do something is a great, but spoonfeeding everyone the formula for a great video (something that would be imposible to do, due to the subjectivity of the concept yet) belittles the process. You create and improve the best when you have a personal goal to overcome in your own right. If someone is providing you the methods you should be attempting to improve on your own, you're not an editor.

The push by many new members here seems to be getting something done for them either by theory guides, or even programs / scripts that do the work for you. I'm not above admitting I have used someone else's cleaning script for a source, but that is far from the level of those that clammor for programs to rip, clean, prep, and cut their footage for them all in one step. At what point does it cut off and mean that you didn't make the video? Part of a hobby is the enjoyment you get out of doing rather mundane tasks. When it's all about being the next big thing, winning some contest, or impressing your friends, you're in it for the wrong reason and you shouldn't be helped / spoon-fed everything by anyone. IMHO These guides on synch are a hinderence rather than a help for the community as a whole.

It's all about who you want to help though. If you think the people that suck at synch will be benifitted by a guide, then keep on keeping on. Personally, the fact that there is any guide there in the first place at least provides another link to drop into any OP or review of the video saying "there's a guide and you still can't do it right?!?"

[DriftRoot]

Wow, look, I think I got here first!

I've read both guides from a purely curious standpoint. I can keep time, I can identify the various components of songs that make them what they are and I'm pretty creative, so the guides for me were more self-affirming, than anything else. Nothing there I didn't already know, at some level. Yes, there were times when I thought, "Well, duh...of course you do that there," but then these guides wouldn't exist if people already knew what goes into a good AMV (action or otherwise).

For the record, I think those guides fall pretty solidly on the objective side of "how to" write ups, which I believe is a good thing. This may be why more of them don't exist, SQ, because when you start giving descriptions of HOW to make a good action video, you're also giving an opinion on WHAT makes a good action video - a slippery slope leading down into the realm of the purely subjective. I generally assumed the only reason these guides are the only ones there is because, 1. they're quite good and cover just about everything an editor should know, and 2. people are lazy and/or don't care about newbies, and 3. editors don't want to stick their necks out and create a guide that could potentially give them a bad name - be it "Can you believe he/she wrote that? The nerve!," or "Your guide is completely stupid."

Guides should be universal and generally acceptable to everyone. When a guide references a good action video, instead of laying out in detail the components of that video that make it good, I think the writer is just trying to avoid the pitfalls of putting forth one's own likes and dislikes as holy gospel. If the writer started listing all the effects in that video, the reader might get the idea that if they use these effects, they will automatically create a great video, and worse, that this is the only way to do things.
While more guides would be nice, I'm not sure we want piles of people's personal opinions on things they like and don't like put forth as fact. Imagine what would happen if there was one guide that pounded away at the "use effects for their own sake" point of view and another that took the complete opposite stance, that effects should only serve the video, not themselves? I can see people turning to them in hopes of clarification on how to make a good action video becoming even more confused by such conflicting positions.

If you have a good grasp on the fundamentals - paying attention to your music, knowing when and when not to use certain effects and a flair for storytelling, all things those guides cover - what's mostly going to make or break an AMV is how well you can put all that stuff together. You can be an experienced AMVer and still make horrible videos, after all, and an inexperienced AMVer can certainly turn out a quality video if they understand the fundamentals.

Maybe what is missing from the Guides section is a more narrowly focused set of write ups on how to achieve particular effects that may show up in many, many (good) action videos. This would be the next level of breaking down videos to go for, in terms of being helpful without being preachy. We also don't want to get redundent. Telling people things that they really should figure out for themselves can be a waste of time when its the learning process itself that will most help them achieve their overall goals.

[DriftRoot]

No, I didn't... oh well.

[DriftRoot]

The push by many new members here seems to be getting something done for them either by theory guides, or even programs / scripts that do the work for you....When it's all about being the next big thing, winning some contest, or impressing your friends, you're in it for the wrong reason and you shouldn't be helped / spoon-fed everything by anyone.
"

You're not young, are you? There's a rampant quality of "do it for me because I don't want to take the time to do it myself" among teens these days (note, I did NOT say "kids", but I could have). This generation has been coddled by their parents and other grownups to the point where they expect everything handed to them on a platter - and god forbid they have to ask for that platter. This may be why some people have short tempers when it comes to assisting newbies with certain issues. Many times the people asking for help haven't bothered to figure things out for themselves or, worse, don't think they should have to.

/me apologizes for triple posting, but /me really wanted to comment on Bashar's words.

[Arigatomina]

I've read these guides. I remember when Madbunny's came out and it was neat to read someone detailing how he uses sync in a vid. But I never tried applying anything in the guides, so I don't really get them.

I think it would be neat to have a creator sit down and detail his process - imagine Koop writing a guide describing how he made Euphoria and standard things he did in that video that he generally applies to any and all videos. It's interesting. But I still see it as information rather than a guide that should be followed by other people - like a diary more than an instruction booklet.

I don't know anyone who's used the guides, and I can't really imagine the sort of video a person would get from following one of them as if the tips were basic steps to be taken before adding your own flair. Does it work? I'd really like to hear from someone who's tried it, and maybe see some example videos showing what you get when different people apply the same basic (not simple so much as common - if they're all doing the same) editing. It would be interesting to see if the videos end up looking similar, or if there are still personal touches that make each one different.

I like having them on the site. I think it's useful to encourage people to read them and see how others do it. The same way you watch other videos to get an idea of how other people edit, you can read these guides and see the steps laid out. But I don't think people should be encouraged to view the guides as anything other than diary-type explanations.

I'd need to try following one and see what I get from it (if it helps my editing, if it hinders my enjoyment of the process, and if the end result is liked well enough by others that my preferences don't matter anymore). If a person can actually apply a 'how to edit' guide and get good responses, then they're useful. But it's like those 'how to draw' books - if there's a 'right way' to do it everyone will do it and that's no fun to me.

[Flint the Dwarf]

I've never read any guides but the technical ones. As far as I'm concerned, each person develops his/her own methods for doing something creatively. Action sync is part of the creative process, and following any sort of guideline only inhibits that creative process. I think it's much better to do your own thing and hope it comes out to be at least a little unique.

Then again, I haven't read these guides, so I don't know exactly what sort of information is detailed.

[JaddziaDax]

the only theory guide I've read was actually Phade's this one and even then it was only the beginning of it.... I dropped off after a while... and never finished it...

I got to the "black flash" on the beats, and well stopped at that point. I wanted to do my own style.

Though, truthfully what I got out of it was to look at the music line and try to follow the audio patterns, that stuck with me, and it helps when markering out a song... I ovbiously dont use black flashes all over the place in all of my videos (I tried white flashes on one of mine, but since then, I've stopped the seizures)

I think that the guide helped though that it said to look at the pattern in the audio line, but I didnt read beyond that, the rest of my beatsync has been based on what I was looking at in the preview box and what I can hear...

As I said, I wanted to create my own style...

lol plus I didnt learn about the marker system in my video editorer untill last fall lol, so most of my "syncs" were based on guesses looking at the time line, and what i could hear with my own ears..

that was ages ago when i looked at it, and i havent looked at either guide since..

The only guides I look at now are the technical ones, and only when i have a specific question...

as for all the "spoon feeding" comments, I can say that I have spoonfed the Sub Removal guide to several people (since that irks me more than beatsync) when it comes to beat sync, i just usually tell people to "shorten their phrases and listen to the music more".

Though sometimes people just need a kick in to the right direction, and having a guide handy can often help, especially if you dont want to have to write it a hundred times...

I dont think that the guides are spoonfeeding... as a general statement when I was a beginner I couldnt get what I needed from the guides, cause I didnt know where to look... now I know where to look if I have a question, and if the answer isnt there then I have friends that can help me.

I dont see anything wrong with pointing someone to a guide, if you feel that it can help their videos, thats not spoonfeeding, thats pointing them in the right direction...

but when it comes to the people asking for "step by step instructions" and they want it in "steps" form THAT is spoonfeeding if you help them out... because they want someone to do it for them and show them how.... granted the guides are sort of just that, but they dont come in "steps" format, you have to know what youre specifically looking for or else you get overloaded.

[JaddziaDax]

the only theory guide I've read was actually this one

haha fixed, thats not phades guide! lmao