We were newbs once, and young...

badmartialarts · Post by **badmartialarts** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:32 pm

Another post from badmartialarts.

Alright, I've noticed something. Maybe it's the fact I've only been here a little over a year, but from my experiences here, it seems the newb bashing has risen to a all-time high. I don't remember getting bashed. Of course, I didn't ask the same random questions or try to use the boards as a chat room (well, until I got more comfortable here, at least). I used the SEARCH features and read the guides with enough of a computer background to understand them.

Now, I can't blame the regulars; well, that's a lie. I CAN blame the regulars (even myself) but there is another factor: the newb explosion. I might be going crazy but there are a lot of them running around hijacking/necroposting threads, being incredibly annoying and whatnot. A lot more than there used to be. It is a standard defense mechanism for any community to feel threatened/annoyed by new members and desire to a) integrate them as quickly as possible or b) expel them from the borders. Thus the quick posts of "Read the guides" followed by the equally quick posts of "LOL DIE N3WB."

Now that I've exceeded the standard attention span of the lam3r n3wbs, let me pose my questions.

1) There is a tremendous forum-only population here despite the lack of an off-topic section (which amazes me). I'M NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT THE PRESENCE OR NON-PRESENCE OF THE OFF-TOPIC BOARDS. (cough). Just something I've noticed. I've also noticed this population consistently hijacking threads to turn them into off-topic coversations, which either kills good threads or overcontinues stale ones. What can be done about this? I realize that a lot of the non-creator members here are in the process of making videos or are friends of creators or are just enthusiasts, and I respect that. But the thread hijacking...

2) Another problem with thread hijacking. This comes from the regulars, and is a very cheap tactic.

Random Newb: Hay I love Nar0to. I wanna make a video using Gaara's fight with Rock Lee but I don't know how.
Regular 1: Naruto blows.
Regular 2: Nar0to is awsm. Here newb, read the guides.
Regular 1: It BLOWS!
Regular 3: OMG OFF TOPIC PLS LOCK! [MOD XXX: Yeah, there are lots of Naruto topics already. Locked.]

Now, Regular 2's post was informative, at least. But the actions of Regular 1 and 3 were sure to negatively influence the newbs stay here, which I believe is the intended effect. What can be done about this?

These two situations bother me but I have no answers (save the standard "Mods need to work harder" which is the obvious but perhaps not the best answer). So, are there solutions?

Discuss.

Zarxrax · Post by **Zarxrax** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:10 pm

I agree that a lot of the regulars post a bunch of stupid shit all the time, which can in fact be a lot more irritating than what the noobs post. I admit that sometimes I get riled up myself. If someone shows incredible ignorance, I'll sometimes go off the deep end and "flame" said person. I try to keep it at a minimum though, and make most of my posts helpful.
I think if you cant say anything contructive or neutral to a thread, then don't say anything at all. And wtf is up with the constant calls to lock threads? Posting in a thread saying that it needs to be locked is just dumb. If you really feel that a thread needs to be locked, post in the moderator drop box instead of spamming up the place for the rest of us.

I don't really think there is a whole lot that can be done aside from more strictly enforced rules... other than DOING YOUR OWN PART. Speak to people in the forum in a maner that you would like to be spoken to. If you see a thread getting derailed, try to bring it back ontopic with something constructive.
And my brain just ran dry, so that's all I have to say here

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:19 pm

Lock-happy mods and the regulars who know how to push buttons? ^_^

It's easy to get a newb thread locked, just blab to someone you know, wait for the newb to get confused and post some defensive remark, then cry for a lock. Thread closed, newb forced to make a new thread - recycle and repeat till newb gets banned, gets a clue and stops posting, or goes away. That takes care of the overeager newb problem right there.

As for bashing, it's not so bad right now - as of the last month or so - compared to what it was last year (from my perspective). Most of what we have now is in the Gen anime section - and that's always been that way. The new members posting help questions in the Gen AMV section don't even get cursed at - someone posts the answer and the thread is locked (or moved to the appropriate section) before a flaming session can break out. If there's any problem at all, it's the lock-happiness I've seen in the last few months. But you have to admit, they *are* telling the newbies why the thread gets locked. It used to be they'd just lock it without a word.

Since we do have open admins (and one open mod), maybe you can handle the new member problem on a more personal (and successful) level. I can tell from a person's first post if he's the type who will jump off and do it again the moment the thread is locked. Instead of locking that thread, try PM'ing the person - explain ettiquette, answer the questions he hasn't had a chance to ask in his (now locked) thread - and he probably won't make another one, or repeat the behavior.

Or - and here's a kicker - make a mod account under something common like "Moderator". Then any mod on-duty can use it to PM members - and no one will ever know which mod it was. This would let you reply to some of the questions put in the mods drop box, and it would give you that personal touch with new members that we don't (can't) have when our mods are unable to reply outside of forum posts.

RootHubController · Post by **RootHubController** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:09 pm

Or, you know, you could enforce tempbans, posting restrictions, IP lockouts, things of that nature.

Make the rules more strict, and enforce them. It's all well and good that we wanna hang out, have fun, discuss the things we like, but the reality is, this is a shining example of the honor system gone horribly wrong.

Admittedly, I do my share of being an asshat, so my credibility is less than stellar. However, there are numerous other forums out there that don't have this problem. Learn from them.

Archive popular series threads, so that n00bs don't pop up with ZOMGLOLZWTFBBB?!?!?! [Anime series here] kicks ass! Discuss!

Let's face it: If they're not smart enough to realize that a site with a few hundred K users hasn't ALREADY discussed [insert anime here] They deserve a healthy tempban.

Anyone stupid enough to engender flamebait should also enjoy a good pleasant vacation.

Brsrk · Post by **Brsrk** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:25 pm

I agree 100% with Zarx, BMA and Ari.

Now it's tome for my 2 cents.

I rarely ever post topics, and when I do, it's usually about some new CD that came out that is pretty good, or about some new anime that no one has heard of, or even to the mod drop box about someone asking for downloaded stuff. When I post in the topics, I either make a sarcastic remark and follow it up with a real response or I just simply respond. Half the time a person is looking for something, I point them to Google (yes, that is what I do here) and/or tell them where to go to get said thing. If it's an AMV, I'm usually too lazy to post a link to it and then just proceed to name the creator, title and music info. I think only a handfull of times I've flamed someone or spoke aggressively. I usually do this when someone goes "OMG METAL/ RAP SUCKS!", and end up posting that it's personal choice, not everyone should love it and hate the other, but there are people who think that their way is the best way.

Another thing I've seen is a rise in certain people posting the same topic in around 5 different sections of the board, then 4 of them get locked and then they complain about how it wasn't fair that their topic got locked, so they made another, it got locked, then they really get PO'd and post one in General AMV about how the mods/admins are being abusive. I really hate people like this, it makes me just want to walk up to them and kick them square in the head.

I also think that if certain people got together and teamed up to create a "newbie intro guide to the org" (I think some have been made, but knowing nubs, they don't read squat...). It'd be a group of people that tell the newb what to do, how stuff works, and above all else: what not to do, and if there are questions, to ask them (I've learned this the very hard way...).

Everything else I want to say has been said by Zarx, BMA and Ari, so there's my 2 cents.

Then again, some of the pointless things can be fun, but end up getting trashed either way.

Lyrs · Post by **Lyrs** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:08 pm

This thread makes me smile. That is all.

Machine · Post by **Machine** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:09 pm

BrsrkEva wrote:I agree 100% with Zarx, BMA and Ari, etc.

trythil · Post by **trythil** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:28 pm

OK, here's my stream-of-consciousness take on this. Read or ignore it as you will.

When people post stuff like "im not one for research", inane requests for help with zero details, or AMV location requests that could be easily fulfilled by using existing, obvious search tools, then I believe that they deserve inflammatory responses.

I believe that one should do their utmost to learn on their own. If one requires outside assistance, then that person should provide a full, coherent log of actions and consequences. They should also provide what they believe to be sufficient context (hint: too much is never enough) and indicate a willingness to provide more detail if necessary. Most importantly, they should indicate that they are capable of experimentation and learning.

Though every forum has its problems, I do see the behavior I described in many places, such as LKML, the Gentoo forums, and in discussion boards on my college's intranet (which I can't link here, since they're password-protected).

Being a newbie is not an excuse for being lazy. The problem with many of the newbies on the .org, as I see it, is an unwillingness to experiment and an unwillingness to learn. They think that the skills involved with making AMVs -- artistic and technical -- are somehow mystical, out of their reach except by hand-holding. They don't bother to read and comprehend the vast amounts of information available to them both on this site and on the rest of the Internet.

That is bullshit, and I will not stand for it. Sometimes, serving sarcasm with assistance is the best way to help someone.

Is this elitism? I don't believe it is. I believe that people have an innate ability to feed their own brains, and I hate it when that capacity is lessened by excessive spoon-feeding.

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:54 pm

trythil wrote:I believe that people have an innate ability to feed their own brains, and I hate it when that capacity is lessened by excessive spoon-feeding.

Nail on the head.

This is exactly what I thought of this all along.

***

Meanwhile, since I guess I can now be called a forum regular - my policy in posting (which has, unfortunately, failed terribly in a few rare circumstances) has been "the quality of the question determines the quality of the answer."

Of course, I don't deny my judgement of quality is subjective. But it's at the very least (usually) reasonable.

If someone makes a post incompetently and/or in poor spirit, I won't sink to the same level; but I do reserve a right to make a displeasing, sarcastic, or chastizing - if still (usually) acceptably-ethical - response. Whether the original post was made by a newbie or a regular should actually make little difference for me here.

And this is where I do agree with the initial sentiment here - yes, please, no breaks for regulars. Discipline for outright noob-bashing. Delete or censor clearly-offensive responses. Beat up elitists.

But no special slack for newbies, either, please. Being new is not a justification for incompetence, merely a cheap exceuse. Although perceived incompetence is not a good justification for someone to attack a neophyte, it is a justification to point out and chastize the incompetence.

And keep in mind, when I'm sarcastic in a newbie thread, I never ridicule a newbie, I only poke at the incompetence itself. I never just 'make up' my mind about someone being 'totally awesome' or 'an idiot'. In my eyes, everyone has equal credit, to gain or lose.

And, indeed, let's not give any de-equalizing special preferences here.

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:06 pm

trythil wrote:I believe that one should do their utmost to learn on their own. If one requires outside assistance, then that person should provide a full, coherent log of actions and consequences. They should also provide what they believe to be sufficient context (hint: too much is never enough) and indicate a willingness to provide more detail if necessary. Most importantly, they should indicate that they are capable of experimentation and learning.

Being a newbie is not an excuse for being lazy. The problem with many of the newbies on the .org, as I see it, is an unwillingness to experiment and an unwillingness to learn. They think that the skills involved with making AMVs -- artistic and technical -- are somehow mystical, out of their reach except by hand-holding. They don't bother to read and comprehend the vast amounts of information available to them both on this site and on the rest of the Internet.

Ah, now if the flamers would explain this instead of pointless curses, maybe the new members would learn something.

I agree completely with what you're saying, especially since the help sections are there to *help* people. The only problem is, the new members don't know why you're flaming them if you don't explain what they're doing wrong. And if you do explain, amid dozens of nasty words, chances are they're going to ignore what you say and pass you off as just a hot-headed flamer with nothing better to do.

I don't see an excuse to flame - to be angry yes, but not to flame a first-time-poster. Flaming is pointless if a person doesn't know why he's getting flamed. He learns nothing from that, except how to flame in return.