mpeg4?

[AMVfreak]

[Wheee_It's_Me!]

LOL, what a joke. Don't tell me I have less experience or research then you kid,

Actually as far as experience I'd say you're about equal. You're just good at slurping up information off Doom9, Tab. ^_^

I've written my own damn jpeg encoder from scratch

Cause THATS real hard to do... http://datacompression.info/Standards.shtml

*shakes head*

and scoured the xvid and libavcodec sourcecode from transform to deblock, H.263 to FFV1.

...why?

Just the fact that you differentiate between xvid and "core mpeg 4" shows you don't know left from right, end of story. Everyone here knows that. Stop being a lame-ass and trying to save face. You're almost as bad as our favorite bullshitter of all time, Mr. Matthew "Mad Hatter" Moulton. And lord knows the internet doesn't need another him.

Last I checked I had made AMVs, you haven't Tab, seems that makes you the "bullshitter", not me. And of the encodes you have put out, OMG are you a n00b? In fact the last time you and I talked about video encoding you were inanely trying to extol the wondrous virtues of fuckin Real Media fer keerist sake! o_O

BTW Tab:
"The format itself is based heavily off Quicktime"

You really should not be writing ANY sort of guides with language skills like that. Honestly, take a technical writing course why don't you. Half the people reading that first paragraph you wrote probably thought you were talking about the codec itself and not the CONTAINER.

DO NOT mix up terms, it makes it confusing and hard to read. Call one a container, call the other a format and the later a codec. And DO NOT say "container format" either, say something like "container specifications".

Examples of Containers
===============
AVI
ASF
MOV
MVK
MP4
MPG
VOB
OGM

Examples of Codecs
=============
MPEG-1
MPEG-2
MPEG-4
Huffyuv
H263
mjpeg
Glzw

Examples of Formats
=============
DVD
VCD
XVCD
SVCD
XSVCD

Examples of Encoders
===============
DivX
Xvid
TMPEGEnc
FlasKMPEG

A format is simply a specific set of specifications regarding the video and audio data of a file, including things like bit rate, resolution, frame rate, etc. Certain formats have more leniacy than others. For example an XVCD is pretty much any kind of MPEG-1 file that doesn't conform to the standards of VCD.

A codec is the way in which the video/audio data is encoded, using various methods, the primary four being discrete cosine transform, vector quantization, fractal compression and discrete wavelet transform.

A container is simply that, a way of storing video/audio data that's been encoded. Some containers are built to service specific needs, for example ASF was built to handle streaming video/audio data, OGM and MKV were built primarily to support multiple audio/video/subtitle tracks. VOB has crap in it for like angles, branching, etc.

An encoder is sorta like a front end to the codec and allows you to do things like multipass encoding, applying filters, various sorts of optimizations that are based on the encoders analysis of the video stream. Essentially it looks at the video and tells the codec the best way to encode it. Sorta like quality control...kinda...*scratches head*...

[Tab.]

As a preface, I have no intention of engaging you in conversation, friendly or otherwise, nor responding to your idle and poorly formulated insults. This exchange will be kept diplomatic and short. I have no time for or interest in another lengthy and mindless debacle.

<i>Cause THATS real hard to do... http://datacompression.info/Standards.shtml</i>

What's the purpose of this link?

<i>....why?</i>

I'm interested in video coding, I thought this was apparent given the context of the thread.

<i>Last I checked I had made AMVs, you haven't Tab, seems that makes you the "bullshitter", not me.</i>

Enlighten me, if you will, to the relationship between making AMVs and bullshitting technical knowledge about MPEG-4. There is none.

<i>And of the encodes you have put out, OMG are you a n00b? </i>

Produce a better encode of that SMS episode and then, perhaps, your opinion will hold some weight.

<i>You really should not be writing ANY sort of guides with language skills like that. Honestly, take a technical writing course why don't you. Half the people reading that first paragraph you wrote probably thought you were talking about the codec itself and not the CONTAINER.</i>

I'm not really sure exactly what it is you're trying to argue here, but I'll have to assume you were somehow confused by my use of the word "format". Dictionary.com defines format in terms of computer science as "The arrangement of data for storage or display." Given that the previous sentence singled out .mp4 as the systems, or "container" if you will, level of MPEG-4, I can't for the life of me understand how it was ambiguous; except perhaps in the case of an uneducated reader, a scenario for which I can't be expected to account.

I don't agree with your definitions, as they show a basic lack of understanding as to the nature of data compression and storage. A codec is a set of routines for compressing and decompressing data. A format defines the method in which tables and other necessary data associated with that compression are stored and transmitted with the compressed data. Industry standards and formal specifications (not "formats") dictate either or both. An encoder is anything that compress data.
To illustrate those definitions, one speaks of JPEG in reference to the transform and compression methods outlined in the industry standard ISO/IEC 10918-1, which is normally stored by means of the JPEG file interchange format (JFIF).

Your outline of 'various encoding methods' is ridiculously flawed. The only two common methods mentioned are merely data transforms, which don't compress anything in their own right, and the other two, VQ and fractal compression, are hardly primary. No mention was made of the backbone of video compression: motion estimation; nor the essential step in lossy compression: quantization; nor the base of all compression: entropy coding (normally in the form of arithmetic or variable-length/huffman coding, preceded often by digital pulse code modulaton [DPCM] or run lengh encoding [RLE]). This is merely informational to all the people reading that list and mistakenly taking it as canon.

The semnatics of your encoder list and definition could be argued for several technical reasons, but I believe I've spent enough energy on this largely futile contribution already.

[Tab.]

Discrete. Discrete pulse code modulaton. Fucking acronyms

[Tab.]

DIFFERENTIAL. GOD DAMNIT.
This is what I get for spending most of the last three months outside.

[DJ_Izumi]

TAB0WNED.

[Tab.]

MORE LIKE
TABONED.

[Wheee_It's_Me!]

<i>Cause THATS real hard to do... http://datacompression.info/Standards.shtml</i>

What's the purpose of this link?

My bad, take the "standards.shtml" off the end, like this:
http://datacompression.info

Then look under JPEG, then scroll WAY down to:

"JPEG Group free software source"

"Free, portable C code for JPEG compression is available from the Independent JPEG Group. Source code, documentation, and test files are included."

My point was that with the rather incredible amount of resources available out there making a JPEG encoder really isn't all that difficult. It's not as if you made your OWN image/video encoder from scratch using your OWN ideas and methods. *shrugs*

<i>....why?</i>

I'm interested in video coding, I thought this was apparent given the context of the thread.

You missed my point.

Enlighten me, if you will, to the relationship between making AMVs and bullshitting technical knowledge about MPEG-4. There is none.

I said nothing directly about "technical knowledge", I said EXPERIENCE. You can read every book on the planet on gardening and you can be a walking encyclopedia of bullshit, but that DOES NOT mean that you can actually garden. Reading isn't the same as DOING, there's a BIG difference, especially when it comes to art. And encoding *IS* an art form (if you want I can break out all those links from last time that you so blatantly ignored).

<i>And of the encodes you have put out, OMG are you a n00b? </i>

Produce a better encode of that SMS episode and then, perhaps, your opinion will hold some weight.

SMS? And I really don't need to "prove" my encoding ability to you, Tab. Anyone whose even the least bit familiar with the data pirating community knows who I am and just how good *my* encodes are (meaning stuff that I've ripped off my own DVDs). Name a single person or group who released a better encode of the special edition CCS movie II...certainly not YOU, that's for sure. Fact is, you don't encode Tab, so the question is why should YOUR opinion hold any weight, not mine.

<i>You really should not be writing ANY sort of guides with language skills like that. Honestly, take a technical writing course why don't you. Half the people reading that first paragraph you wrote probably thought you were talking about the codec itself and not the CONTAINER.</i>

I'm not really sure exactly what it is you're trying to argue here,

Of course you don't! And that was my whole point! You have an extraordinarily POOR grasp of the language. I swear, sometimes when I'm replying to you it's like I'm talking to one of those Dutch n00b jobs over in teh binary newsgroups.

Hell, half the time in the past when you "proved me wrong", it wasn't so much that you proved ANYTHING, so much as it was that I couldn't understand what the hell you were saying and just sorta guessed at it.

but I'll have to assume you were somehow confused by my use of the word "for<SLAP>

No, no, no, NO! *shakes head*

It's not that what you said was wrong, Tab, it's that what you said WAS CONFUSING! Especially to people who don't have a lot of knowledge in the area. When you say the word FORMAT in video encoding you should be referring to, just that, formats, like SVCD, DVD, etc. The problem is that when you start using the word format in conjunction with OTHER words like container. When you say CONTAINER FORMAT, the word that's gonna stick in everyone's head isn't gonna be container, it's gonna be FORMAT, that's just the way our brains work. So although what you said was "technically" correct, you just went and passed on bad information cause now every n00b who reads it is gonna read it is as FORMAT and they'll mix up SVCD, DVD, etc with stuff like AVI and MOV.

Do you understand now? It's not enough to just be a walking encyclopedia of bullshit, you also need to have EXPERIENCE in doing what you're babbling about AND you need to know how to convey that knowledge AND experience to people WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH IT in a way that WON'T CONFUSE THEM!

I don't agree with your definitions, as they show a basic lack of understanding as to the nature of data compression and storage.

*shakes head*

Tab, just for like, one moment, wake up and try and remember where you're at. You're not in a forum full of people with computer science degrees and a vast, high level understanding of video science...you're in a forum filled with mostly 12 and 13 year olds who, in case you haven't noticed, DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HELL IT IS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT! o_O

You gotta kinda keep things simple, round em off a bit, speak ENGLISH.

A codec is a set of routines for compressing and decompressing data.

Half the people who just read that probably went, "Huh?"

A format defines the method in which tables and other necessary data associated with that compression are stored and transmitted with the compressed data. Industry standards and formal specifications (not "formats") dictate either or both.

Bravo Tab, if we were all analytical little robots I'm sure that might have made sense to more than just...7 people on the .org.

An encoder is anything that compress data.
To illustrate those definitions, one speaks of JPEG in reference to the transform and compression methods outlined in the industry standard ISO/IEC 10918-1, which is norma<SLAP>

OH MY FUCKING GAWD STOP ALREADY! o_O

*shakes head*

Look, Tab, you just don't get it. It's like whenever someone shows up with a question about encoding, rather than answer their BASIC question in a BASIC way that they can understand CLEARLY, you somehow take it as like a personal challenge to your knowledge (note I say knowledge and not experience). Your problem is that you don't actually want to help anyone, you just wanna like show off for some inane reason. THAT ISN'T HELPING!

The way you describe things, the way you explain things...it's just nonsensical BABBLE to most of the people around here, especially the people ASKING THE QUESTIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE!

So yeah, a lot of the things I say may not be UBER technically correct, but they're correct enough in a sense that newbies can at least get a basic grasp of what it's all about. LATER when they have a greater understanding of the subject and EXPERIENCE to go along with it, THEN most of your definitions would be good.

Essentially you're trying to teach like calculus III to a bunch of students who haven't even taken a basic algebra course!

[DJ_Izumi]

Anyone whose even the least bit familiar with the data pirating community knows who I am and just how good *my* encodes are (meaning stuff that I've ripped off my own DVDs). Name a single person or group who released a better encode of the special edition CCS movie II

And how much of that was just filtering and noise reduction methods?

[Kalium]

Hatter, I just want to correct your view of the demographic at work here. While much of the site may fall into the 12-13 range, the editors tend to be old and have a greater degree of technical knowledge. After all, editing neccessitates a degree of knowledge of the medium.

Anyway, Tab does do encoding. He has been thanked for encoding help by more than one fairly prominent member of this connumity. (No, I'm not claiming me, but it remains.)