'concept' videos |:>

[OropherZero]

i have a feeling that i caused this thread with what i said on kael's thread ~_~

[Streicher]

Could it be what you are trying to tell is, that you are missing the feeling of love and fandom for the sources in those pure conceptual videos? Or at least showing respect.

And that "demo reel" feeling is very common in Seishiga MAD. The games and songs they use are quite interchangable and so all that is left are how shiney/cool the effects look.

I would still call those kind of videos AMVs. But they have left the realm of being "fanvideos".

[Koopiskeva]

I'd love to see more conceptual and artistic AMVs because there is a severe lack of them compared to the typical audio and visual synch video which as describes try to 'promote' the sources, which catters for the fans of the sources. Conceptual AMVs to me have a much larger audience and can be appreciated by those who may not even know what an anime is. Digital art videos aren't meant to synch, but do have flow, but some of the mentioned AMVs do indeed synch, ie, they cannot fully break out from the traditional AMV realm but in saying that, an AMV like Silencio takes synch up to a new level, it focusses on dynamics and tries to transfer this sensation to the viewer, it doesn't 'break down' the music and anime into separate components and even further decompose these components into more detailed elements, but rather it is more of a 'how can carry this sensation or feeling from start to end, using the song as a medium'.

I think part of this was already addressed by this...

The fact that editors like Kael and Plain of the Shepherd are trying new things shows that the artform is advancing. I suppose you'd be right in saying that the videos themselves don't advance AMVs, for the reasons you stated, but I hold that the fact that the videos were created in the first place shows that AMVs haven't come to a dead end yet.

However, although they may be 'trying new things' if they don't pertain to the source whatsoever other than using them as a visual medium, then what good does that do for AMVs? I could just easily watch some effects composer's demo reel and apply those techniques into AMVs. So, if you're going to make a 'concept' AMV, why not actually take advantage of the sources? You can still drive your video with the concept, but actually use the source to help make that connection to the viewers.

To add to that though..

Perhaps I'm just not fond of the use of people using the word 'concept' to drive what many people are really doing. Making effects videos, giving vague references, and people referring to them as 'art.'

and

So basically, you're only looking at the familiar art-style and not necessarily the anime and the emotions it carries? If so, that brings it back... why use an anime at all? Why not just make something of your own that could better convey the concept instead of people watching a 'concept amv' with certain expectations of what the anime is supposed to be within that amv and therefore not allowing your concept video to be totally free from all preconceptions?

I don't think I even mentioned 'synch' cause to me, that has less to do with the concept and more to do with 'presentation.' I'm not saying that these 'digital art' videos lack technical and editing competency... that's not the point. It has partly to do with what Streicher said and what I've been saying similarly with the lack of connections.

Could it be what you are trying to tell is, that you are missing the feeling of love and fandom for the sources in those pure conceptual videos? Or at least showing respect.

And that "demo reel" feeling is very common in Seishiga MAD. The games and songs they use are quite interchangable and so all that is left are how shiney/cool the effects look.

I would still call those kind of videos AMVs. But they have left the realm of being "fanvideos".

Partly, yes... this gets the point of what I'm saying.. that these AMVs are AMVs simply because of their source, and no longer 'fanvideos.' At this point, it makes me question why they use the anime at all, like I had asked earlier. That, to me, means that they are only technically AMVs, but don't capture the spirit of what AMVs are as fanvideos.

In terms of appeal that Oropher says, "Conceptual AMVs to me have a much larger audience and can be appreciated by those who may not even know what an anime is," that may be true, but that once again, why even use anime? Why didn't they just actually draw/model/create whatever it is they wanted to express? It seems to me that by losing the fanvideo connection, that they are just being lazy about actually wanting to create something original, different or artsy. I'm not going to get into the subject of all these digital art videos, cause at least in those, they make their own footage from scratch... (not saying they are good, I think most of them are useless fluff honestly (same can be said for AMVs), but that's an entirely different subject.)

I think it boils down to.. me seeing AMVs as an extension of the sources it uses, and if a video doesn't take advantage of these sources/connections and only uses them to create something 'of their own original, artsy, creation,' it loses its appeal to me, and I see the editor merely being lazy about actually creating something original themselves. The respect for the source is lost and all the ideas behind what the source actually means.

I think that, if you want to make an original, conceptual video, make your own damn sources, don't just manipulate what's there. A concept video becomes more successful if the lack of preconception (from the sources) is there.

So, though these videos have technical presence, and are competently edited, they don't succeed in being AMVs (and yes AMVs are definitely a fandom), and are only halfway there in achieving something 'original' because they just recycle footage. Therefore, it loses substance (in terms of classic AMV terms) and depth (in terms of being a concept video) as it provides nothing new in terms of the connection to the anime, and no new footage as an original artpiece. It may provide a new way of 'presenting' footage, but that's as far as I see them playing any sort of role in advancing AMVs (and in that light, making them no better than pure effects videos).

[CrackTheSky]

I think that, if you want to make an original, conceptual video, make your own damn sources, don't just manipulate what's there. A concept video becomes more successful if the lack of preconception (from the sources) is there.

Ahh...I see...

The problem I have with this sentiment is that you make it seems like creating your own sources is some simple process that's actually realistic for all of us. I personally have next to no artistic talent whatsoever, and I would be dissatisfied with any kind of original art I would want to draw for my ideas (ignore for the moment how I would even get this art animated).

So if I wanted to make a completely original AMV, at least as far as the visual art goes, there's no way I could make it to my own standards. Besides, sometimes I don't want to put months or years into creating original animation for a single idea. It's just not realistic. So I do the next best thing, and that is to use sources that have already been created for me.

I honestly don't see the problem with taking an anime out of context to suit your own concept; for all of us it's not a matter of laziness, but lack of skill. Creating original art is not some two-step process that can be done on a whim (for most of us, anyway). It takes more time and patience than a lot of us have; obviously there are going to be videos like Kamoc's Is That You or _Ice-Angel_'s Lost Kitten that use self-created sources to suit their concepts.

But I mean, come on - if someone has an idea that doesn't fit with existing anime, does that mean they should have to make their own sources? I think it's just as creative to use existing sources in new ways - just because they don't reference the original source in terms of context doesn't mean they can't be effective at carrying emotions or ideas. This is where things get subjective, so I'll leave it at that.

[Arigatomina]

It may provide a new way of 'presenting' footage, but that's as far as I see them playing any sort of role in advancing AMVs (and in that light, making them no better than pure effects videos).

What would it mean to "advance amvs"?

When I think of "advancing amvs" I think creating new fans who want to make their own amvs. Or making videos so interesting that even non-anime fans appreciate them. Maybe having an ultimate "amv artform" that is so "cool" technically that professionals give us a nod of approval. It's the effect vids and concept vids that achieve this.

What good will more story videos do for the hobby? Who are we trying to benefit, the editors or the viewers?

It sounds like you're worried about the anime fans getting bored because videos don't require having seen the anime already (emotional attachment to the footage used). Anime fans are happy just seeing a clip of their favorite character - they make the connection no matter what the video is about. It's the editors who are hard to satisfy and they can make their own videos if they don't like what their peers are making.

[Corran]

I'm a firm believer that, if you want to make a video that appeals to a large audience, then there needs to be a balance in your editing techniques otherwise you'll just appeal to a niche audience.

This applies to almost everything.

• Don't under-sync but also don't over-sync to every beat.
• Only use effects when appropriate. Only use simple cuts when appropriate.
• If you choose to use lip sync, don't throw in a couple of syncs out of nowhere but don't over-do it either.
• If you use lyric sync, find a balance between literal and abstract sync of the words, and try to not over-do the sync to where the video becomes so predictable that it is no longer interesting.
• Find a concept that isn't over everyone's head, but don't choose one that is brain-dead shallow either.

Note that I said appropriate for effects. If you're making an effects video then obviously it is appropriate to use lots of effects. Keep in mind however that the effects still need proper execution and must serve a purpose. If you don't have an engaging concept in your effects video, then all you really have is effects for the sake of effects and thus mindless eye-candy. Same goes for choosing cuts in straight cut videos except it wouldn't be mindless eye-candy, it would just be mindless...


Finding a balance and appealing to a large number of people isn't really fan-pandering. (Assuming the definition is something like throwing in unnecessary scenes fan-girls go ga-ga/squee over...) However... fan-pandering itself is fine if used appropriately and with balance. When I made videos in the past, I tried to make it so not only the people who had seen the sources would appreciate it, but, at the same time, if they had seen the show it would add to/compliment their viewing experience.

So in relation to this thread, Jay is not in the niche group these kinds of 'concept' videos are aimed at. (and neither am I actually...)

I don't think the fact these videos are being made has any real bearing on the future of the amv community. There will always be people that will make videos you like just as there are people that still make linkin'ball videos today. It just becomes more difficult to find what you like while the majority of the community has a different interest than you. I'd bet there are videos that even Beowulf would like being released these days, but he doesn't have an easy method of finding them since the community focus at the moment doesn't align with his personal interests. (Thus he can not rely on the community to help him find these gems.)

The community focus however is always changing. Effects videos aren't as popular as they once were. You need a damn good effects video these days if you want some serious praise. I think we will eventually see the community interest come full circle back to the simple editing styles eventually, even if 'concept' videos do become the next interest. (Though I think they are destined to remain a niche interest since amvs really are and will always be a fandom. They simply lose their primary audience without any real connection to the sources used.)

[Koopiskeva]

Ari,

I meant to put 'advancing AMVs' in quotes.. sorry.

That wasn't really the point, just kind of a side note of what others have said of what concept videos do for them and this hobby.

[Bakadeshi]

eh I mostly edit just for the challenge of making the vision in my head a reality. the fun part of amvs for me is the technical part, when I can create something as close to my original idea as possible and learn something in the process. The least fun to me is going through all the footage ;p most of my videos ideas all spawned from a specific effect or concept I wanted to try and made the entire video just to try that effect or concept.

for example: my Haruhi video was done just because I wanted to try synching the band scene to the song. The bleach video was done mostly because I wanted to try that dreamy shacky effect I used in it, but I did think the song just so perfectly fit her, so the song did have a major reason also in that one. AR2 I wanted to create something like a movie, that told its own story with the help of text, presented like a motion picture. very few videos I do are just because I wanted to do a specific song to a specific anime character ;p (like another accidental love story)

[Bakadeshi]

hit submit too quick ;p

> Zetsumo obviously I wanted to try altering the story of the anime from its original. I actually had this idea of betrayal and vengeance before wotb released, that video only inspired me to work on it faster ;p

Although I do like it when people like my videos, I don't edit them to hit the top of the top 10%. I don't follow trends or whats popular. I do get inspired. Reflections for instance inspired me to work on an idea I've had for ages that is similar, just because it proved it can be pulled off well. I might end up making a vid like it, even if that may happen to be the next trend, its just a technical challenge for me, not something to get popular by ;p Same with the idea of using 3d in amvs.

[Koopiskeva]

Cracky,

I never said creating your own source was simple.. well it can be.. just depends on how you want to represent it... its the same with AMVs, they can be as complex technically as most of those 'digital art' videos.

"But I mean, come on - if someone has an idea that doesn't fit with existing anime, does that mean they should have to make their own sources? "

No, it's perfectly fine to do that.. it's not like the definition of a classic AMV is some kind of holy grail that all editors should strive for. It's when people view theses concept videos as some kind of 'new path' for AMVs or saying that they give 'more substance' than AMVs is what irks me. It's just a different way of using the sources. It's not anymore a new path as what people already do with other mediums.. trust me, I can make some random floating things on screen, with a weird kind of flow/synch and give some vague little reference to some word... is that creativity? No. Creativity should have a focus, a clear focus, to be deemed something that is worthwhile. I can think of dozens and dozens of ways to use footage in a way it has never been done in an AMV, as most can, but that doesn't mean it's creative unless it's actually cohesive and makes a point.