The Technical Terms of downloaded footage.

[SarahtheBoring]

AMVs are illegal on the re-distribution part of the case, that's a fact. However, since we're doing something illegal (by law) anyway, would using fansubs also be in the same department? We didn't BUY the rights to use the footage from the anime DVDs, we just bought the DVDs. On this basis, using Fansubs is just as bad as using DVDs, wouldn't you agree?

No, your reasoning makes no sense - all "illegal" things are not exactly the same.

Ethically, and this is my view: Ignore everything that happens after you get your source. If you buy a DVD, you are contributing to the industry. If you download fansubs of licensed material, you are not - in effect you are draining the industry, by not making a contribution that would otherwise be made.

To simplify it, let's say you have a lunch and I want it. I could beat you up and take it, or I could buy it off you. Which do you think is better for you? And to you, does it really matter what I do with that lunch afterward?

Granted, there aren't finite copies of an anime series. But ethically, it makes no sense to say "well it's all illegal anyway lol." There is a difference, whether you want to own up to it or not.

[Unfound]

I'm just trying to make a legitmate arguement STB. I'm personally against downloaded footage for the same reasons you are. I thought it'd be interesting to look at it from a different viewpoint. (And I should've specified that it was un-liscensed anime, but I doubt that'll make any difference)

[Arigatomina]

To simplify it, let's say you have a lunch and I want it. I could beat you up and take it, or I could buy it off you. Which do you think is better for you? And to you, does it really matter what I do with that lunch afterward?

Just for fun (don't you dare get mad at me, I'm just playing ;p ), let's shift this comparison a bit.

Say I don't have a lunch, I have a peanut tree. You're hungry, so you could steal my tree and eat the nuts. Or you could buy the tree from me. I wouldn't mind selling it since I'd get something from that - and maybe you'd come back and buy another of my trees later. But you don't want to buy the tree from me because I charge a *lot* for that tree. Instead, I sell my expensive tree to someone who makes copies of it - using the seeds and growing identical trees. That person sells those trees and makes a huge profit. You're hungry, and you don't like to steal, so you buy that tree instead of taking the nuts. I don't care. I don't get any money from you - I've already sold the tree. What the guy who bought it does with it (whether he strips the leaves and puts ribbons in the branches, or paints the nuts purple) - that's nothing to me. I may have grown the tree, but that's over now. It's out there - it's not my tree once others start eating it and paying a second party for the pieces. At best, I have my reputation for having grown that tree. And that's not so bad.

If you look at it that way - my tree being the anime series created by the original group - then no, you're not giving them *anything* when you buy a US released dvd. At best, you're giving them spotlight from the people who watch the vid you make with that anime. But those using stollen nuts (aka - fansubs from the original tree rather than buying the separate, changed, descendents of that tree) - they're not giving me anything less than the ones who bought their copies legally. They're still giving me spotlight, and that's all I can get once I sell the tree.

^_^

Don't get me wrong, stealing is bad because hurting people is bad and stealing almost always hurts people. Using fansubs for a licensed series hurts the US companies trying to bring the anime over. But feeling sorry for the US companies is different from feeling sorry for the people who *made* the anime. They've wiped their hands clean the moment they sold it - they don't get royalties the way recording artists in the US do, they just get the spotlight of having made the original. And they get that no matter what source is used in an amv - so long as it comes in some way, from that original.

Granted, there aren't finite copies of an anime series. But ethically, it makes no sense to say "well it's all illegal anyway lol." There is a difference, whether you want to own up to it or not.

Yep, stealing is wrong. ^_^ At least when it hurts someone. It's just a matter of who you're hurting and whether or not you're willing to accept the guilt for hurting that person (or group).

[Unfound]

Ariga, if that passage wasn't insanely over the character limit in my sig, it'd be down there right now. And, I think the point that Sarah was trying to make is that by buying the US Release DVDs, you're still supporting the Japanese companies because, by making anime more popular, dubbing companies need to buy the rights to more animes, therefore, in turn you ARE contributing back to the original companies.

/Unfound

[Arigatomina]

And, I think the point that Sarah was trying to make is that by buying the US Release DVDs, you're still supporting the Japanese companies because, by making anime more popular, dubbing companies need to buy the rights to more animes, therefore, in turn you ARE contributing back to the original companies.

Yes! ^_^

So I could sell more trees to the hungry audience. ;p That's what distributors are good for, after all. But fansubbers have their purpose - no one would know about my peanuts if someone out there didn't spread the word for me, and offer taste tests at your local supermarket.

[SarahtheBoring]

(OK, point taken about playing devil's advocate - I didn't take it personally anyway, this is just an interesting topic.)

As for the last part, don't misunderstand my stance - I think there's something wrong with fansubs of material that's already licensed in your region. They're in the same boat as HK pirate copies, as far as I'm concerned - they're a ripoff.

However, if a series hasn't been licensed in your region, and isn't guaranteed to be licensed very shortly (ex. a continuation of or an OVA to a wildly popular series) I do condone that. Sure, you risk crappy video compression and all, but ethically I condone it. I'd go so far as saying that they serve as grassroots promotion, although still not legal. (I approach things ethically, considering that we all know that what most of us do is flatly illegal.)

When it comes to fansubs, I think it's a case of using the resources properly. All fansubs are not the same.

I'll repeat that, because I think it's very important here - all fansubs are not the same. I think there's a world of difference between a fansub of a series that isn't licensed and one that is, especially if it isn't clear whether it will be brought over or not.


As for what I said about supporting the original makers - I don't mean the specific makers so much as the non-Japanese anime market. In other words, it's not so much a case of "Wahh, you're stealing from Anno-sama!" so much as "Rather than showing distributors and anime producers that their product will sell here, you've shown them that it will sell weakly and therefore, we won't be treated like a worthwhile market."

...Unfound put it more succinctly than that.

But it's absolutely key to differentiate between fansubs of licensed and unlicensed series.

[mckeed]

Let me get this cleared up right now. If you own the DVD's of the footage and the CD of the Music, it is perfectly legal to make an AMV in the privacy of your own house and show it to your friends. This definately falls under fair use as you are using it for private use and are not making a profit off of someone else's work. The only legal problem is distributing it to a lot of people. That is the legal grey area. Even though a series isn't licensed in the united states, it is still illegeal to use it. Japan, the US and a few other countries signed an agreement that they would uphold each others copyright/trademark's. Fansubs are in no way legal in the countires that have signed this treaty as they are protected under this. If you do a google search you can find this treaty and read it in detail and see the countries that signed this agrement. Japanese company's generally turn a blind eye to this as this as they see it as free publicity and encourages US companies to pick up the licenses.

[madbunny]

You know, they say that the smarter you are; the more wrinkly your brain is. You guys must be the wrinkliest! Sure I may be a little on the smooth side of things, but it doesn't take a genius to know that evil is bad, and good... isn't.

Fansubs are illegal, they are an unauthorized distribution of a series. Sure the companies might turn a blind eye to it, but that doesn't change anything.
Downloaded footage that does not come from the licensed distributor is illegal, sure they might turn a blind eye to it...
Taking a video camera to a movie theater and taping the movie is illegal too.

If you don't want to wait for something to be released, and don't feel like getting the actual source from japan, or a local japanese video store then as far as owning the material you are SOL. If there is no way to actually get it, say if there was an animated knight rider or something in japan and it was so bad the building was burned down then you are still SOL.

Use your downloaded footage if you want guys, but at least take the time to make sure it doesn't look like dirt when you are finished with it. Don't try to convince yourselves that because everyone turns a blind eye that it's ok.

Think of it like speeding 5mph above the speed limit, sure every one does it, and most cops will just ignore you unless you are in a school zone or something. Just because they turn a blind eye, doesn't mean that you are not breaking an existing law.

[Akai Rurouni]

AMVs are illegal on the re-distribution part of the case, that's a fact.

<ot>
Thanks everyone for this awesome, intelligent discussion. Threads like this too often degrade into stupidity, but you've all kept it mature and sensical, and I'm really enjoying it. 8)
</ot>

Back to my actual point, I've actually look a bit at IP (intellectual property) law. Before I go any farther, let me say that IP law is _never_ clear and depends on many fuzzy factors. That said, I do not _believe_ that redistributing AMVs is generally illegal (from the point of view of the anime video source; the music is another issue, and may be illegal).

AMVs are a derivative work (of the anime). They also use only a small portion of the original. They are for personal use (in the sense that they are not corporate or educational - though public showings, such as at cons, may make this point more fuzzy). They aren't for profit, they aren't being sold, and they aren't being used for any business or corporate purpose. And most importantly, they don't detract from the revenue or profits of the copyright holders.

I could also make an argument that they should be protect under parody, but I'm not positive that would hold up for _all_ AMVs. (Depends on the judge. )

[Arigatomina]

I could also make an argument that they should be protect under parody, but I'm not positive that would hold up for _all_ AMVs. (Depends on the judge. )

I think the problem with this is that fan videos actually use the original product (unlike fanfics where only the idea is reproduced, or fan-manga aka doujinshis where it's a 'similation' of the original). Fan videos use the footage - they don't create their own version of it, they actually *use* the footage itself. The same for music - they aren't doing their own versions of the songs, they're actually using those songs. Even changes to the original footage won't count as 'parody' because it's still the original, just rearranged. Parody work, like the sort protected in the US (think of books) rely on the idea that only the 'concept' is being reproduced, or the 'idea' is being twisted.

But even parody work is sometimes outlawed. There are certain US writers who've taken it upon themselves to dissallow parody work based on their novels or ideas. If enough of them gang together, books like 'Wind Done Gone' (a parody of 'Gone with the Wind' for those who don't know) will be considered 'intellectual plagiarism' and taken off the shelves. So far we're doing good to keep these people from...outgrowing their britches. There's no way we could stretch 'parody protection' to include fan videos.

Amvs use too much of the original content to be parody - instead of reproducing excerpts (words), they reproduce footage - either one is allowed in moderation with the proper citation, but basing an entire work (or video) on someone else's material is theft. I don't think any US laws can be twisted enough to make that legal.