A forum for newbies?
- bobbias
- Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:15 pm
- Location: Midland, Ontario, Canada
In one of the forums I'm a member of, for a long time they had things set up like this:
After you signed up, you had access to one forum, which contained a rules sticky and a thread where you had to say you read them. Post-count was disabled there, and you had to post in the thread to get access to other threads.
It kinda relies on the fact that people read the rules, but you could always give them an obscure requirement that they need to read the rules to know what to do.
After you signed up, you had access to one forum, which contained a rules sticky and a thread where you had to say you read them. Post-count was disabled there, and you had to post in the thread to get access to other threads.
It kinda relies on the fact that people read the rules, but you could always give them an obscure requirement that they need to read the rules to know what to do.
- 808-buma
- Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:40 pm
uuukkay, I just read thru this posting and I have to agree with Kionon - having a 'safe haven' for newer editors is a good idea. I understand BotA's argument but people do learn differently. Some of us do not do well from books and must be taught one-on-one (I usually fall into this category, at least in school I did) with examples basic 'black-board' problems that comes in easy-to-understand steps. Some of us learn well from books or online media on our own and that's fine too.
I'm still relatively new at this, considering that the handful of videos I've done don't compare to many of you who've made more in a few months that I have in all the (short) time I've been here. When I started, I too read thru the guide and didn't understand a good chunk of it (unsurprisingly - and some of it I still don't quite grasp) but my main goal was to learn enough to ask intelligent / informative questions. The reason? As I lurked thru the forums, it was rather obvious that it was a harsh place for stupid questions - a 'survival of the fittests' sort of attitude and damn the newb.
If there were a more 'new-editor-friendly' forum, I think that we could help them flourish and expand the number of good editors (and videos) out there instead of frightening them off as we tend to do sometimes with our Read <a href=http://www.a-m-v.org/guides/avtech31/>ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides</a> responses tend to do.
I'm still relatively new at this, considering that the handful of videos I've done don't compare to many of you who've made more in a few months that I have in all the (short) time I've been here. When I started, I too read thru the guide and didn't understand a good chunk of it (unsurprisingly - and some of it I still don't quite grasp) but my main goal was to learn enough to ask intelligent / informative questions. The reason? As I lurked thru the forums, it was rather obvious that it was a harsh place for stupid questions - a 'survival of the fittests' sort of attitude and damn the newb.
If there were a more 'new-editor-friendly' forum, I think that we could help them flourish and expand the number of good editors (and videos) out there instead of frightening them off as we tend to do sometimes with our Read <a href=http://www.a-m-v.org/guides/avtech31/>ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides</a> responses tend to do.
- Arigatomina
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:04 am
- Contact:
I always miss the good stuff. Darn it. >.<
Where is the equivalent to that now? No, new members don't need more help than the old ones did "back then." But they're not more jaded and unfriendly now than they were "back then" either. The forum's taken out the friendly, "hey, there, welcome" and replaced it with "read this and this and this, and don't introduce yourself because it's not allowed here."
Noobie Tank:
I see it being used primarily as an introduction section with each new member making his first post, "hey peeps, this is what I've done, this is what I want to do, can you tell me how to -----????" These first posts will be jumped by the bored and helpful few with their own personalized list of "links and tips for the noobies". And by the time the people are ready to reach the rest of the forum, they'll know which help forum to take their "editing specific" questions. Just like they did back when I joined. When we had the intro section. Yeah.
I don't see the noob tank working as a "teach them to edit" section unless you have new members being adopted and followed when they advance to the big forum. They'll come in, you'll have a quick chance to steer them in the right direction, and then they'll disappear into the masses again. That's how it should be, in my opinion.
Without that first stop we don't know who's coming in. And we don't care. We don't allow intros, so our "not caring" is excused as "following the rules." Convenient.
Yes.godix wrote:So in other words we can blame the noobs on you and the solution is more people like me?
You know what's missing now as opposed to "back then"? The introduction section. You know, that first stop for new members where the cheerful bored and helpful people snagged each intro and gave their own, "Welcome to the site! Here's some tips and links to get you started! Ask if you have any questions!"BasharOfTheAges wrote:New people today aren't any more or less in need of help than people that joined when you or I joined. More guides, stickies, and repeated advice is available now than it was last year, the year before, or 5 years ago.
Where is the equivalent to that now? No, new members don't need more help than the old ones did "back then." But they're not more jaded and unfriendly now than they were "back then" either. The forum's taken out the friendly, "hey, there, welcome" and replaced it with "read this and this and this, and don't introduce yourself because it's not allowed here."
Noobie Tank:
I see it being used primarily as an introduction section with each new member making his first post, "hey peeps, this is what I've done, this is what I want to do, can you tell me how to -----????" These first posts will be jumped by the bored and helpful few with their own personalized list of "links and tips for the noobies". And by the time the people are ready to reach the rest of the forum, they'll know which help forum to take their "editing specific" questions. Just like they did back when I joined. When we had the intro section. Yeah.
I don't see the noob tank working as a "teach them to edit" section unless you have new members being adopted and followed when they advance to the big forum. They'll come in, you'll have a quick chance to steer them in the right direction, and then they'll disappear into the masses again. That's how it should be, in my opinion.
Without that first stop we don't know who's coming in. And we don't care. We don't allow intros, so our "not caring" is excused as "following the rules." Convenient.
- CodeZTM
- Spin Me Round
- Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:13 pm
- Status: Flapping Lips
- Location: Arkansas
- Contact:
- 76
- Ninja mother-figure
- Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:48 pm
- Status: Learning
- Location: in the clouds, crying over a dying world
- Contact:
I'm sorta pulled both ways with this, the fact is that Bota is sorta the only one with any outstanding argument.
but there seem to be quite a few who understand and want to help the helpless newbs(hehe, funny saying newb when your one yourself). but the fact remains that those who want to learn wll learn, and craddling the future members of this forum will not entirely help this problem, because what happens when theres no answer to a newbs question for an extended period?(I.E. the main "helpers" are on vacation or were hit by a truck) the most likely reaction a newb will have is to post where people will see the post, so as to get an answer more quickly.
on the other hand, having a specifically named(in bold, GIANGANTIC red letters)
help forum with links and specific moderators would allow some of the current newbys help with problems. but once again the even newer newbys will get impatient and start to ignore the stickies that are posted, and it will all be a wasted effort.
start a petition get dedicated reliable co-"helpers" and once theres enough effort built give the forum a try, if it doesn't work after 2-3 months(should be more than enough time due to the current tide of members nowadays) have the forum completely removed. and the .org can go on as is has.
I'm still a newb myself, I'v never donated and I've never posted a video, one time I got brave and tried posting a banner, but never tried again. and yeah, until I had grasped my E-manhood, I wouldn't even dare post in the more in-depth threads. but I'm learning with every flame-war and ever bit of over-seer thrashing. and yeah I thought people like bashar were complete asses when I first entered the community. but as I've grown as part of the overall community I've found out that people will come, people will go, and those who choose, will stay and learn.
yes the learning is difficult, yes we need people who'll stand up and teach the otherwise ignorant. but giving them an entire forum just because their ignorance is so massive is not the way(in my own opinion of-course).
but altogether I'm with bashar, "no retreat, no surrender, that, is spartan law."
(and honestly, I'm always prepared before-hand(before posting that is) for my over-seers to look down on my effort and glorify or dismiss my effort. and then lighting the way to nirvanna or banishing me to the depths of hell. either way, if I'm really dedicated to doing my thing then I'm going to take that chance again, and again, be ready to fail. while also being ready to succeed
but there seem to be quite a few who understand and want to help the helpless newbs(hehe, funny saying newb when your one yourself). but the fact remains that those who want to learn wll learn, and craddling the future members of this forum will not entirely help this problem, because what happens when theres no answer to a newbs question for an extended period?(I.E. the main "helpers" are on vacation or were hit by a truck) the most likely reaction a newb will have is to post where people will see the post, so as to get an answer more quickly.
on the other hand, having a specifically named(in bold, GIANGANTIC red letters)
help forum with links and specific moderators would allow some of the current newbys help with problems. but once again the even newer newbys will get impatient and start to ignore the stickies that are posted, and it will all be a wasted effort.
start a petition get dedicated reliable co-"helpers" and once theres enough effort built give the forum a try, if it doesn't work after 2-3 months(should be more than enough time due to the current tide of members nowadays) have the forum completely removed. and the .org can go on as is has.
I'm still a newb myself, I'v never donated and I've never posted a video, one time I got brave and tried posting a banner, but never tried again. and yeah, until I had grasped my E-manhood, I wouldn't even dare post in the more in-depth threads. but I'm learning with every flame-war and ever bit of over-seer thrashing. and yeah I thought people like bashar were complete asses when I first entered the community. but as I've grown as part of the overall community I've found out that people will come, people will go, and those who choose, will stay and learn.
yes the learning is difficult, yes we need people who'll stand up and teach the otherwise ignorant. but giving them an entire forum just because their ignorance is so massive is not the way(in my own opinion of-course).
but altogether I'm with bashar, "no retreat, no surrender, that, is spartan law."
(and honestly, I'm always prepared before-hand(before posting that is) for my over-seers to look down on my effort and glorify or dismiss my effort. and then lighting the way to nirvanna or banishing me to the depths of hell. either way, if I'm really dedicated to doing my thing then I'm going to take that chance again, and again, be ready to fail. while also being ready to succeed
Everything came from nothing, therefore everything is nothing.
There's nothing to worry about.
There's nothing to worry about.
- DriftRoot
- Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:18 pm
- Status: As important as any plug-in.
- Location: N.H.
One could say the Help areas (video help, audio help, software help, encoding help, etc.) is the newbie area by another name, although it's frequented by non-newbies as well. Anyone with half a brain should be able to tell from one glance at the forums that there is a large area here devoted exclusively to helping people with all kinds of problems. If they don't think that's enough, they're free to try and find some other way to answer their questions.
Don't tell people to sit down, shut up and make themselves invisible if the purpose of this site is to encourage people to share their hobby with one another. Maybe we should have a non-newbie forum, seems like that's what some people really want - a the "real" editors can go and not be bothered.
And is ostracizing newbies to their own forum really going to help them? That is what this is about, right? Helping people? Or are we trying to avoid helping people?
Don't tell people to sit down, shut up and make themselves invisible if the purpose of this site is to encourage people to share their hobby with one another. Maybe we should have a non-newbie forum, seems like that's what some people really want - a the "real" editors can go and not be bothered.
And is ostracizing newbies to their own forum really going to help them? That is what this is about, right? Helping people? Or are we trying to avoid helping people?
- BasharOfTheAges
- Just zis guy, you know?
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:32 pm
- Status: Breathing
- Location: Merrimack, NH
I think we're trying to not cater to lazy people that don't want to put forth the effort to use their eyes and brains (and guides) and simply want free tech support right the fuck now.DriftRoot wrote:Or are we trying to avoid helping people?
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- 76
- Ninja mother-figure
- Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:48 pm
- Status: Learning
- Location: in the clouds, crying over a dying world
- Contact:
once again I agree with bashar, the ability to think is a gift GOD gave to all of us, and we should not cater to the needs of lazy little morons who want everything gift-wrapped.
now I'm not saying every little newb is a moron, but most of the 12-year-olds that come here wanting to just glance and dance, should learn to be more patient, because the world isn't going to stop and look everytime you glue some macoronies to a plate(macoronies,mac-or-onys, hell, I don't know. you get the idea)
it'd mostly be a waste of time and effort, not to mention it taking up valuable space.
now I'm not saying every little newb is a moron, but most of the 12-year-olds that come here wanting to just glance and dance, should learn to be more patient, because the world isn't going to stop and look everytime you glue some macoronies to a plate(macoronies,mac-or-onys, hell, I don't know. you get the idea)
it'd mostly be a waste of time and effort, not to mention it taking up valuable space.
Everything came from nothing, therefore everything is nothing.
There's nothing to worry about.
There's nothing to worry about.
-
- のヮの
- Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:08 pm
That's exactly it.BasharOfTheAges wrote:I think we're trying to not cater to lazy people that don't want to put forth the effort to use their eyes and brains (and guides) and simply want free tech support right the fuck now.
While I do agree with the idea of a noobie tank, the idea of every single new member posting an introduction thread really kills me. While it would be great to have a place that's more noob friendly, in essence the org already has such places in the help sections.
I mean, to be entirely honest, this forum has everything you need to know in order to get started on your AMV. A place for people to introduce themselves and be welcomed, in my opinion, would just serve as a spam center. I mean, I myself am a new editor to the forums, and I spent a great deal of time before I registered reading through all the technical guides, only registering because I still didn't understand a good deal of it.
Personally, I don't think the org needs to be more friendly towards noobs, because this place is unique from other places (such as youtube etc), people should be quick to grasp the idea that not everyone is willing to sugar coat comments just to leave you with a nice feeling. If they are not willing to take a little time out to read through a few guides and rules, what makes anyone think that they would put in the time to even make a decent AMV?
What we don't need is a place to pamper noobs and welcome them to the site, but rather a place where they may be able to understand how this place works, along with the idea that there will be a fair amount of reading and time involved before they can even think about getting started (excuse me if that was the original idea intended)
Although from that it seems like I am opposed to the idea of a noobie tank, I'm really just opposed to the idea of having a place for noobs to gather.
I'm most curious as to how you would plan to have this dealt with, because even if you could set some sort of post limit before allowing them to announce their AMV, that's no guarantee that they will read any of the rules/guides etc. I remember someone telling me that they simply could not be arsed downloading a AMV, and therefore youtube was superior. How do you plan on getting people like that to be willing to put in any effort?
Just to reiterate, this forum has everything you need to get started, and I found the help sections to be more than friendly when I asked for advice. I'm all for the idea, but only if it doesn't act to promote more people who are willing to do less.
- DriftRoot
- Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:18 pm
- Status: As important as any plug-in.
- Location: N.H.
I completely agree - you can put a huge sign up, but you can't make people read it, and it's their fault if they don't read it. I'm just saying that one's first introduction to this site shouldn't be being picked up by the scruff of the neck, told "You're a newbie, so we assume you're a lazy bum and we hate lazy bums, so go over there and don't bother us." Most people agree that there are signs and guides and things all over the place around here and lazy bums still abound, so trying to get them to use their eyes and brains by putting up more signs probably isn’t going to work.BasharOfTheAges wrote:I think we're trying to not cater to lazy people that don't want to put forth the effort to use their eyes and brains (and guides) and simply want free tech support right the fuck now.DriftRoot wrote:Or are we trying to avoid helping people?
The situation should moderate itself. If one is sick to death of dealing with lazy bums, just ignore them. Chances are pretty good someone else will step up to straighten them out. If no one does, well, either that lazy bum will get the hint and go research the problem on their own or they'll just say "screw a-m-v.org" and leave. Whether they succeed or fail is not on our shoulders, it's on theirs, because we've given them all the tools they should need to get started.
There's no HELP forum, really, it's become very broken down and segmented. I can see where newbies get confuzzled trying to navigate around here - for instance, it's probably quite difficult to find the right place to ask about compression (and not get yelled at) if you don't even know what compression is. It would be nice to have a locked sticky thread to link to devoted to pointing out all the various resources sitting right here for folks - we have a lot of such threads/forums pointing people in various directions, but is there one that just lays it all out in front of you?
I'd love to see the age ratio of this thread...how many "older" editors are eyeing the younger (newbies) and thinking "Damn kids these days, they want everything for nothing! Back when I was a newbie..."
