So You Want to Start a Revolution?

Nightowl · Post by **Nightowl** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:58 pm

I haven't replied back to this forum for a bit because I wanted to see exactly what would happen, the discussion that would take place. That was the main intention of the post - to incite discussion. I know a great many people who feel the way I do, most of them simply aren't willing to stick their heads out. I wouldn't have made this post if I were the only one who felt this way.

This was already mentioned, but I am NOT leaving the .org. Nowhere in my posts did I say I was. I love AMVs, I love the forum; there are simply problems that need to be fixed. Once again, I am not the only person who thinks this. And how many of those "I'm leaving" or "I hate" threads have there been? I know of two, maybe three or four, at most. If you're allowed to post your opinion about my opinion of the general state of this forum, then I'm allowed to make the posts in the first place. If you want the freedom to speak, you can't have it both ways - how in the hell is this an "all about me" thread if it concerns the general AMV populace? The fact that anyone who hates my post then posted in it proves I got your attention.

I love AMVs. I love EVERY part of the .org. To me, these things DO matter. If you love something, why simply drop it so easily? FIGHT FOR IT. To just leave, give up, seems to be something people do these days. Can't deal with shit? Surrender. I refuse to do that. I want to bring it out in the open, see what people would say. When I first posted I knew some people would disagree, and that's good - it makes for a healthy discussion. No one person has all the answers. But I also knew if just one person agreed with me, then there IS a problem. And that's how change starts. Many people told me that what I'm doing is worthless, that it's pointless, and I should just give up. Well, I won't give up. I love it here. I love everything from general AMV to the off topic forums. I didn't pay my dues to the site just to split, and in doing that gives me a goddamned voice as well.

If nobody was willing to stand up and be specific, AND stick with it, fine. There were some things SpPanda said I did agree with, some I didn't. But by the time I got to his thread, it was too late and everything was done already. The one problem I saw that he did was apparently he named names. I don't think there's a problem with any individuals. It's the group mentality, the ganging up on people, the kill or be killed consumerist nature of the forums that gets on my nerves. And if you've created such a place, place people HAVE PAID FOR, there is a certain level of responsibility for. The advent of the donut changed a lot, in my eyes.

The org now IS better than it was. What I did enjoy back then was a certain level of respect people had for each other. I, too, have been on MUCH larger forums where that respect remained. I love this place. I don't want to see it fall to pieces.

More later.

-N

Nightowl · Post by **Nightowl** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:10 pm

Lyrs wrote:anyway, i think this thread is silly considering that there are people starving, dying, getting shot, being raped, tortured, and abused all across the world and here we are. increadible, isn't it?

THis has been said, in so many words, by various others on this thread as well. And you know, it's a bad argument. It always will be a bad argument. Why make videos? People are dying. Why leave the house? People are being raped. You know, I shouldn't fight for the ability to get my money back because I asked for no pickles on that cheeseburger - people are starving, I'd better worry about that for the rest of my life.

That's the kind of argument I used in high school. It's completely illogical and supports living one's life in a constant state of fear.

I care about this place, I see problems, there are others who would agree, I made a post. Anything else I would want to say concerning this topic would be in my post above. More as they come...

-N

Nightowl · Post by **Nightowl** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:27 pm

And ONE LAST THING I forgot to mention (I really need to think these things out first)!

When I said do a video with no effects, no frills, I didn't say ONLY make those videos - just try it. It can be for practice, or fun, or competing, whatever you want. Obviously, you don't have to, but it's good to stay in editorial shape. It's like training. I'm not saying EVERYBODY! EDIT THIS WAY NOW!! I mean, christ, has anyone seen the kind of video I do?! It's just good to get back to your roots, to understand how and why you do something before using the next big filter. Know where that filter came from and why somebody made it. There is a world outside of AMVs, and AMVs are built upon that world.

-N

Kai Stromler · Post by **Kai Stromler** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:42 pm

Belady-Lehman says that any software system, given enough changes to it, will eventually and inevitably reach a state in which each attempt to fix something simply causes more problems. It can be argued from the paper that Quu posted in an accompanying thread that the Belady-Lehman curve also applies to these kinds of low-cost-of-access communities that you see on the internet: as more people join and try to do things that the original designers or organizers didn't intend them to do, things break. Anyone remember that journal crash a few months back where some recently joined members used the journal system as a chat or IM utility and blew up an old bug?

As that paper says, you can't really separate the technical and social. So keeping the .org from undergoing Usenet-style implosion is a technical and social responsibility. We can argue on all we want about art being non-scorable, and eventually some people will listen, but it'd also be possible to kill the top-10-percent hype by allowing users to mark videos as disallowing scores in opinions, and basing the 'top videos' on users' favorites lists, much the way that favorite anime are rated. We can complain to the mods about the forums filling up with offensive or useless posts, but a karma system based on site participation (usefulness in ops, insightful posts, donut contributions, etc) and a user-moderation threshold to send pointless threads to WOT would help enforce those community standards.

Of course, I haven't thoroughly looked ofer the requirements for either of thse changes, and I obviously don't have access to the .org's PHP engine and database structures, so they may very well be unimplementable or break enough stuff to make the Belady-Lehman situation worse. Maybe I will get around to working up a tentative system to send to Phade for comments and possible merge. Maybe someone else with more free time and more PHP experience will do so first. Maybe we collectively will be able to change the .org culture so that such technical changes won't be necessary. But, as Nate said, it's none of it going to happen unless people do *SOMETHING*.

The .org is great because some yobo from nowhere can make three butt-quality LBZ videos, make an ass of him/herself on the forums, and then, a year later, pick up enough info from here to make a masterpiece, win a major contest, and shock the world. The .org sucks because so many people join every day thinking they're already at the second stage and not still at the first. The .org is great because for less than the cost of a homepage that barely allows you to store a moderately sized image gallery, I can host dozens of inconsistently edited videos combining copyright-violating visuals with music nobody wants to listen to, and never worry about bandwidth charges. The .org sucks because too many people also think this is a great idea. The .org rocks because so many interesting/cool/weird/knowledgeable people hang out here. The .org sucks because it's online, and the standards of internet behavior are imposed, not the standards of a con party.

That's it. Forget the karma system, I'm going to work on an Internet Beer Protocol. In addition to the Golden Donut we'll have the Keg of Golden (taps and pumping to be funded by donation). That'll make everything work better.

--K

Lyrs · Post by **Lyrs** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:49 pm

Nightowl wrote:
Lyrs wrote:anyway, i think this thread is silly considering that there are people starving, dying, getting shot, being raped, tortured, and abused all across the world and here we are. increadible, isn't it?
THis has been said, in so many words, by various others on this thread as well. And you know, it's a bad argument. It always will be a bad argument. Why make videos? People are dying. Why leave the house? People are being raped. You know, I shouldn't fight for the ability to get my money back because I asked for no pickles on that cheeseburger - people are starving, I'd better worry about that for the rest of my life.

That's the kind of argument I used in high school. It's completely illogical and supports living one's life in a constant state of fear.

You're so right. It is a poor arguement, except for the fact that you don't have to live in a state of constant fear. but i won't get into life styles, my arguements will likely be as illogical as it has already been. no sarcasm intended.

However, the purpose of the post wasn't to say that you shouldn't complain, just be aware that you're having it better than other people, and be happy with what you have, not that you can't improve on it.

I care about this place, I see problems, there are others who would agree, I made a post. Anything else I would want to say concerning this topic would be in my post above. More as they come...
-N

Anyway, i'm glad you're not making a "this site sucks, i'm leaving" thread, 'cause if anything, you're a valued member of the community, more so than some of us, and by that i mean myself, 'cause i'm many people.

CaTaClYsM · Post by **CaTaClYsM** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:19 pm

I think the arguemtn is illogical because it has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about, but that's just my opinion.

Pie Row Maniac · Post by **Pie Row Maniac** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:18 pm

CaTaClYsM wrote:I think the arguemtn is illogical because it has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about, but that's just my opinion.

Indeed. In the OJ Simpson trial, you didn't see a person stand and shout "But what about the kids in Ethiopia!?"

But I kinda understand what Lyrs was referring to, he just said it in a way that made us say "Wtf?"

Kusoyaro · Post by **Kusoyaro** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:27 pm

Basically, if you always compare everything to the greater scope of life, then in reality, there's never any reason to care about ANYTHING.

Who cares if you get fired from your job? Some people have never had a chance to even GET a job.

Who cares if your mother dies of cancer? Mothers are murdered and raped in Iraq every day!

Dannywilson · Post by **Dannywilson** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:08 pm

>_>
<_<
>_<

I'm going to get lynched for this, I just know it.

I know this is a serious thread, I just kinda wanted to lighten the mood a bit, that way not everyone is this much in need of anti-depressants next con.

Now back to the argument. I know I'm an asshole at times, but when someone actually makes a decent attempt to learn, research, AND THEN asks a question, I treat them with respect, and try my damndest to answer their question. But when some punk runs into the video help forum and says "MY VIDOE IS TEH HGUE! HWO DO I COMPRISS IT!??!" I don't even bother to reply, because with that same amount of energy (Maybe a little less, because this does not require typing) the punk could have scrolled down a little on the page and found 3 other topics EXACTLY LIKE HIS that have been answered by exasperated helpers time after time. Do you know how many times I've started threads looking for help in the help section? Less than I can count on one hand. Do you know why? Because the first thing I do is look in the guides. If it's not in there, I google the sonofabitch. If THAT fails after 30 minutes, THEN I post in the forums. Yes I was a noob once too. Everyone was. But the smart ones, no matter how tedious, read the guides, and THEN ask questions if they don't understand them. I guess part of the problem with the donut, is it reaches out to a far younger crowd of editors, most of which can't stomach the idea of reading the equivalent of a long, boring(to them maybe) technical manual. Most of these kids would typically not have the money time or inclination to host their videos was it not for the ease and low/no cost to them from the donut. Though I don't like to make generalizations, these are typically the same kids that our school system is apparently not teaching spelling and/or grammar, thus translating over to nearly unreadable posts. Call me a cynic, but I just am weary of constantly helping these people who proceed to go use this newfound knowledge of why the fuck their pirated copy of Premiere is crashing on them when they try to import downloaded inuyasha clips, to create their opus to the next big Clearchannel Communications poprock-hit It just bugs me some times, but I'm on a fucking rant I need to get off of.

It feels good to vent huh?

Lyrs · Post by **Lyrs** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:09 pm

Kusoyaro wrote:Basically, if you always compare everything to the greater scope of life, then in reality, there's never any reason to care about ANYTHING.
Who cares if you get fired from your job? Some people have never had a chance to even GET a job.
Who cares if your mother dies of cancer? Mothers are murdered and raped in Iraq every day!

You took it too far. I'm not saying you shouldn't care about anything because more horrible things have happened to other people. I'm saying you should at least reflect that your position isn't as worse as others or as it could've been.

i think you knew what i meant originally, and if not, well, heck.