God

[Krisqo]

well that makes more sense... O:
I would have loved to take theology in Highschool
i went to public highschool (in a millitairy school district) I was lucky to get Choir and Drama O.o

Believe me... it sucked. Especially if you had priests and nuns as teachers

[Arigatomina]

God put the tree of Knowledge there and forbade Adam and Eve from eating the fruit as a test...

I think so, too. If you believe in an all knowing god, it must have been a test. Like a trick question. It set up guilt in the entire christian human line from that moment on. They spend the rest of eternity seeking forgiveness for failing that test.

Don't forget that God knows everything. Past future thoughts motives sins acolades. He knows everything. He knew the moment he put that tree there that if he worded his warning one way, they'd listen to the snake. If he worded it another way, they wouldn't listen to the snake. He knew the snake would be there because he knows everything. He created everything. Of course he knew they'd eat the fruit. To say he didn't know what choice they would make is to say he didn't know how the human 'world' would end. He knew. How else could he have told people what to write in revelations? If he can see that far into the future, how could he not realize that his newly created humans would be leaving his garden very quickly to start populating that world that was destined to end the way he dictated in revelations?

There is no free will. Not if you believe in the beginning and end of the bible. Not if you believe in an all knowing god. If he had told them 'eat of that fruit and you'll be kicked out of eden, your spawn will be cursed for life, and the new earth you'll populate will end as described in an apocalyptic chapter of a certain book that has yet to be written since you don't even know what clothes are yet' - they never would have eaten it. He knew that because he knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen.

With a perfect all seeing god, free will is an illusion. It's the hungry dog with two bowls of food - one with rat poison mixed in, the other with chocolate. He gets to pick which one to eat out of, but whatever choice he makes, we know he's going to be barfing or dying once he's finished because we set out the dishes for him. Rats in a maze might get to pick which direction they run in, but it's the guy who built the maze who has all the control.

[Otohiko]

There is no free will. Not if you believe in the beginning and end of the bible. Not if you believe in an all knowing god. If he had told them 'eat of that fruit and you'll be kicked out of eden, your spawn will be cursed for life, and the new earth you'll populate will end as described in an apocalyptic chapter of a certain book that has yet to be written since you don't even know what clothes are yet' - they never would have eaten it. He knew that because he knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen.

With a perfect all seeing god, free will is an illusion. It's the hungry dog with two bowls of food - one with rat poison mixed in, the other with chocolate. He gets to pick which one to eat out of, but whatever choice he makes, we know he's going to be barfing or dying once he's finished because we set out the dishes for him. Rats in a maze might get to pick which direction they run in, but it's the guy who built the maze who has all the control.

Yes, but that's not something that requires an all-knowing god. There are plenty of other philosophical directions which discount the idea of a purely 'free will' (my own included); from social structures to very concrete physical and biological limits, there are actually very narrow possibilities for ways in which people can behave or think. To me the most obvious sign of that has always been the dependence of human thought on categories.

[badmartialarts]

With a perfect all seeing god, free will is an illusion.

I've written this out better elsewhere and I keep telling myself I need to go to some real philosophers and make sure my reasoning is valid, but you can have a perfect all seeing God and free will, thanks to quantum mechanics.

I don't want to get too in depth but one of the varieties of quantum mechanical thoery states that the best way to envision any event is that it is the sum total of all possible outcomes of the event, ususally ending up as the most probable of those outcomes but not always. Now, if you posit God to be something outside our known laws and universe, He could see ALL the possible outcomes all at once. Therefore, anything could happen, but nothing would surprise Him. I see our lives as kind of like a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book, with God as the writer. He doesn't necessarily have to know which page we'll turn to, but he already knows what that page is gonna have on it.

[Arigatomina]

I see our lives as kind of like a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book, with God as the writer. He doesn't necessarily have to know which page we'll turn to, but he already knows what that page is gonna have on it.

That's how I like it. Except in my ideal, he doesn't really care which page we decide to end up on. Most christian religions say he picked one ending, tied all the different "adventures" up so they'd all end up in the same place regardless of their choices along the way. To me that's pointless.

I don't like the way they'll tell me about free will - as if I should be grateful, and happy that he allows us such freedom, rejoice in the freedom. And then in the very next sentence they remind me that I can never question or attempt to understand God's will because what he decides is unchanging and unquestionable because he knows what will be and that's the end of that. Free will in one hand, but if God wants you to do something you're doing it whether you like it or not in the other hand. Like the guy's bipolar or something. Very annoying. ;p

[Ileia]

I have more fun talking to Catholics and Jehova's Witnesses - because they like to argue and convert and that makes for great debates.

My dad married a woman who was one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and yeah, I'll give them that. They do like to argue. They might be more knowledgeable than your average religious person (it's a common practice to read the entire Bible once a year, studying is every day, not to mention three to four meetings a week.) but they will never think for themselves, or question what the organization accepts as right. If proven wrong, or asked a question they don't know, they'll request time to study that and "get back to you." I got that several times, and I was only 13 at the time. (The answer I ended up getting for "Where did God come from?" was "It's not in his plan for us to know that.") There's just no room for personal opinion or speculation.

I had trouble being forced to follow that religion, considering how strict it is, especially being a teen and having lived the way I wanted previously. Suddenly, I couldn't celebrate any holidays, read books or watch movies that clashed with the Bible ( that included any science fiction..or pretty much any fiction. I was generally limited to the Bible, books the organization published, and movies that they produced) and I wasn't allowed to listen to the radio, so I had a choice of classical music or hymns. And I was not allowed to associate with anyone that was not one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Anyone else is considered a bad association. So, basically, you could try to convert people, but not be friends with them. Unless they convert.

I usually got forced into going to sleepovers with the young people and I was the only one of them that had ever been "worldly" as they call it, and so they tended to still keep me at a distance, like I had some sort of disease. I can see why most people view Jehovah's Witnesses as a weird cult or sect. Needless to say, after I wasn't required to follow this religion, I didn't. And it left a bad taste in my mouth for all others.

[godix]

The answer I ended up getting for "Where did God come from?" was "It's not in his plan for us to know that."

What's sad is that there is an answer for that question and that isn't the answer. Even sadder is that I don't believe in that shit and I know the answer that someone who read the bible yearly and studied several times a week doesn't.

[Ileia]

Either that or they DID know and had some sort of weird reasons not to tell me. :O

[JaddziaDax]

i used to have a friend that was JW, she felt guilty for being friends with me, and every other friend she had, cause none of them were JW and she couldnt get along too well with other JWs... i think mostly cause she liked fantasy stuff... (either that or cause she was a spaz O.o - which is why im not friends with her anymore... i could care less her religious beliefs when she freaks out over tiny little stupid things... glass woman, i had to step around eggshells just to be friends with her O.o)

but alot of the stuff Ileia says makes alot of sense... i mean i try not to judge a religion based on one person, but the more JWs i meet/see/hear about the more it seems accurate O.o

I can understand reasons behind some of the things they do: like the dont celebrate holidays, due to pagan influences (or something) or no gift giving on birthdays because you should EXPECT GIFTS at SPECIFIC times of the year :/ that gifts should be given because you want to give them... but at the same time that kinda takes the "fun" out of most religions :/ but i guess religious practices "arent supposed to be fun"

i still celebrate Christmas even though I consider myself pretty non-religious, but thats because its fun!

[JaddziaDax]

or no gift giving on birthdays because you should[n]n't[/b] EXPECT GIFTS at SPECIFIC times of the year :/ that gifts should be given because you want to give them...