Thoughts on substance in AMVs

[Sephiroth]

My 'opinion' on this, the entire topic is junk. Substance is a relative term the only real substance to an amv is the anime part since thats what it's made out of. The rest of whats "important" that everyone is saying is ignorant, limiting, and elitist.

Ignorant because its unaware of anything else.

Limiting because instead of growth it's just another retreading of the same old dogma.

And elitist becuase "i'm sucessfull so make things the way i want them to be"

Go ahead and continue to try to catagorize things that worked in a vain attempt to capatalize on them. There's allready enough systems which try to do this Nealsons and test audiances. The consequences of which has been horrible mundane junk.

What about emotion, or spontinaity, or insanity, cause , effect, fluff, hate love, woe, joy, sorrrow, integrity. So many more things that it's not even funny. Everyone on these forums is now dumber for having read it, shame on you and may god have mercy on your soul.

I don't know where this secret cabal of "all AMVs must have story to be good" is coming from, but it clearly exists if there's such an in-depth topic about it. As I said previously, you can talk about AMVs like that. While I'd go on to say "and you would be wrong" or "but your view of everything also sucks," Koop asked us not to state our own opinions as facts, so I guess I'll be forced to take the more intelligent route.
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[Koopiskeva]

What about emotion, or spontinaity, or insanity, cause , effect, fluff, hate love, woe, joy, sorrrow, integrity. So many more things that it's not even funny. Everyone on these forums is now dumber for having read it, shame on you and may god have mercy on your soul.

That's part of what I've been trying to point out.. that there's much more to amvs that just looking for a story. |: .. maybe you should re-read what's been said |:

[delirium_sj]

Tried to get through all the posts but all the hot water and dish soap steamy stuff I've just got done with have done a number on my eye sensitivity.

Anyway just thought I'd pop in my opinion here as well...

I either like or don't like an AMV based on how it makes me feel. Story, no story, whatever, even if the quality isn't perfect or the editor spent 2 days or 2 months doesn't really matter, you can tell when they've put their hearts into it, and that's what matters. When an AMV tears my sides up with laughter, makes me cry, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, gives me battle lust , or just leaves a big smile on my face....I know it was worth the download. It's all in the emotions baby.

Everyone has their own opinion. And some people's opinion is that everyone shares their opinion. It's usually a headache to try and get them to understand differently so when someone comments on something in my AMV...I think about it, decide if I agree with what they're saying, then do whatever the hell I want anyway. Simple. No headaches gauranteed.

Just a warning before anyone starts listening to what I'm saying though...The AMVs I vote for never seem to win VCA I'm not an AMVer for the masses. lol. You've been warned.

[Kalium]

While it's fair to say that there is no wrong way to make an AMV, there are certain common standards that have evolved. A video that has atrocious synch but a clear concept tends to be viewed as a nice try. The reverse tends to be viewed as an underdeveloped video.

As I said earlier, I think that AMVs are just about expression. From a vague idea, to a single emotion (or a jumble of them), to a complex and non-linear story, it's all expression.

Yes, even when the video exists to confuse you. That's expression too.

Oh, and I'm going to have to go through this thread in fine detail later. It's a veritable gold mine. (Yes, I'm still interested in AMV theory, deal with it.)

[Knowname]

You don't consider linear story vids to be amvs, let alone to be good or proper amvs. Why would you be so frustrated if a few people don't consider your nonlinear nonstory vids to be proper amvs? I don't think anyone could change your mind about what you think counts as an amv. You won't change their minds, either. You can either correct them by explaining that most people here don't agree with them (so it's not a fact), or you can ignore them as being uninformed.

No, no.. I do consider those linear story videos to be amvs... but my opinion on them is that they have less to do with the music and more to do with the anime.. but I don't thnk any less of them in reagrds to amvs as a whole.. I don't go about stating that they don't belong i the community for having too much story and such. Changing people's minds about how they think about videos is something that probably won't happen.. but there's no harm in trying.. This is more of an infomative discussion on thoughts based on amv perception theory in reagrds to video storylines and substance.. and though I may suggest certain ways of viewing videos... they are merely that, suggestions. However, through this discussion, I believe that it can influence those with such closed-minded opinions to see videos beyond what they normally look for.

ol you know, as I look at my profile I see three videos, all three the kinds talked about in this thread, ]this one heavily song oriented, this one heavily anime oriented and this one heavily emo lol... so no, I'm not haveing these 'preconceived' notions as far as editing is concerned.

So, just because you know who I am or you think you do and have a certain assumption on the things I create, it means that whatever I create already has a negative impact on what you view? You've got a pretty biased sense in viewing these don't ya... and because of that, you'll most likely miss quite a bit.. not only in my videos.. but everyone elses.

I never said I didn't like Suberunkers' stuff. And what I like and don't like rareley has anything to do with what I download.

For instance I'm downloading an amv right now cuz I like the anime it's based on and the amv creator that made it. That's pretty ++ on story alone.

How is it that basing it off an anime you like and the amv being made by certain amv creator = a ++ on story? That's merely an asumption on what the editor may have intended... you're basing story on something that are only parts of the AMV, not the AMV itself.

if you finished reading that I stated that's not how I do the op itself, it's just how I go into it, if you think about it the end is the same. If your trying to say my ops are unfair than maybe you should look at a few, they're usually pretty average or lower than average as far as numbers show, and that's even for creators I like. My average is lower than 8 in every category.

In relation to theme and AMVs, I define story as events that occur in the video to make certain situations progress from one to the next. In regards to theme in that aspect, those would be aspects of the story that re-occur in the video in various ways, either simply in the atmosphere or the mood of the video to objects that continually help to move the story in the video.

nice -_- something this thread was about finally ;p. and apparently our deffinitions are VERY different, you seem to define story as something that works alongside the theme. very well, but I don't see how you differentiate between the two. When comeing into this thread I had thought that as well. But if you truley don't have a story, what the heck is the theme going to do?? It helps to move the story but with no story... does it take the place of the story? What would be an example of a video that has no story, Waking Hour??

OK... not sure what I should look for next. Nothing?? I don't know... I like Arigatomina's complaint. You have no complaint, just that when ppl don't see story in your no story amvs you wish they wouldn't say so... it sounds like your saying 'if you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all'.

[Arigatomina]

...there are people who leave feedback stating opinions as if they knew better than the editor that created the video...

Here's a quick example:

Even though I understood the story you were attempting to convey, I wonder if it would have been possible to make it even more clear with some shuffled choices of clips.

I'm sorry, but I can't believe you took offence to that. What did you reply to the person? Even if you weren't attempting to convey a story, it's not an insult for someone to assume you were. Unless you prefaced your vid description with "There is no intentional story in this video" the viewer has no idea you're different from all the storytellers spotting the site. It's a natural assumption to guess the creator intended a story, even if it's not quite the story the viewer read.

The bit about shuffling clips wasn't given as an insult, either. It's an attempt at helpful feedback. The reviewer didn't say "You should have shuffled these clips. Then you could have conveyed this story you were aiming for better." That would be overreaching his bounds, adding insult to injury. "I wonder" is barely even confident. It's worded in the weakest way possible to say - "I assume you were trying to make this story, but I didn't quite get it because these pieces don't fit anywhere in the puzzle. Rather than overreach and say I think you screwed up in your presentation of a story with this video, I'll just note that it was a few clips shy of making sense."

Some people will always try to make sense out of clips that appear random to them. It's partly a knee-jerk reaction to make sense out of a vid that would seem pointless otherwise, because who would bother making a pointless video? And who would review a video he gets nothing from? These reviewers need a story with their vids, or at least expect one, so they're putting it together on their own and leaving feedback from there. If you really want to stop them from making that innitial assumption, preface your description with "there's no story here, if you leave an op, please don't assume there's a story, because there isn't." That won't stop the people who don't read the description, but it should tip off the ones who do. And it will keep those people who expect and want a story from downloading your videos.

Random action vids are open about what they are, so no one expects stories from them. I don't think there are enough videos to make up a genre for "storyless emotion-based collage vids". Until there are, you'll have to tell people what type of video you're making. Otherwise, they won't know how to look at it and they're going to compare it to the known types of videos - most of which are story-based.

...they state their opinion as if it were an actual fact that I had some kind of story that I was actually trying to convey, even though that was not my intention...

How could they know that was not your intention? Did you tell them? Were they supposed to have watched some other video that would prepare them to instantly recognize what sort of amv you had made? Unsolicited ops are based on the video and how the viewer interprets that video, with possible influence from the vid description. If the video isn't self-explanatory and the vid description doesn't tell you what you're watching, the reviewer has only his own interpretation to go on.

Really, this would be like me not putting romance down as the category in one of my yaoi vids and then getting furious with a reviewer who complained - "I know this wasn't your intention, but the guys looked a little gay in this. If you cut out some of those mushy scenes, it wouldn't look so gay."

...actually, I've done that. But I was only annoyed for a few minutes! I was quick to put the appropriate warnings in my video to forestall other such reviews, and I've continued to put explanatory notes in all my vids since then. Knee-jerk reactions suck. But you can avoid a lot of them by telling people what they're downloading before they download. Keep them from assuming one wrong thing after another and ending up with the least helpful feedback possible.

[Koopiskeva]

if you finished reading that I stated that's not how I do the op itself, it's just how I go into it, if you think about it the end is the same. If your trying to say my ops are unfair than maybe you should look at a few, they're usually pretty average or lower than average as far as numbers show, and that's even for creators I like. My average is lower than 8 in every category.

I'm not saying that your ops are unfair.. but you did state that downloading a video using a certina anime made by a certain amv editor = ++ for story... which just doesn't make sense |:

nice -_- something this thread was about finally ;p. and apparently our deffinitions are VERY different, you seem to define story as something that works alongside the theme. very well, but I don't see how you differentiate between the two.

Um, you asked me how I would define 'story' in relation to theme.. so of course I would answer how story correlates to the theme.. but on its own.. story in an amv, to me, are the events that unfold within the video to show progression in the video... I don't believe it's necessary and it's only one way of showing progression.

When comeing into this thread I had thought that as well. But if you truley don't have a story, what the heck is the theme going to do?? It helps to move the story but with no story... does it take the place of the story? What would be an example of a video that has no story, Waking Hour??

To me, a theme can be entirley independent from a story.. as in the video can focus on just a theme, and not have a story at all... In waing Hour, there's no story... if you thnk there's one.. that's because of your own perception of it. It was made to express the emotions I felt by combining the anime and the song.. not to be taken literally in the sense of a linear story of even a sort of theme of "love and despair" ... the concept of it is based on the expression of the emotions, not the retelling of a love story nor a theme, which just becomes apparent because of the presentation of the video.

OK... not sure what I should look for next. Nothing?? I don't know... I like Arigatomina's complaint. You have no complaint, just that when ppl don't see story in your no story amvs you wish they wouldn't say so... it sounds like your saying 'if you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all'.

Eh? This is merely a discussion on thoughts.. not an actual complaint.. if I had a complaint then I would've said so (except for stating that I disagree with those narrow-minded individuals whom insist that stories are the only form of progression).. I'm merely reflecting on opinions and views that people have on the subject of stories and substance...

[Koopiskeva]

I'm sorry, but I can't believe you took offence to that.

Um.. no, I did not take offense to that.. I was merely using that as an example. |:

What did you reply to the person?

I hardly ever respond to ops.. because I'm lazy. |:

Even if you weren't attempting to convey a story, it's not an insult for someone to assume you were. Unless you prefaced your vid description with "There is no intentional story in this video" the viewer has no idea you're different from all the storytellers spotting the site. It's a natural assumption to guess the creator intended a story, even if it's not quite the story the viewer read.

Once again, the point of this thread is not about me getting offended.. if that were the case, I would've made a complaining rant thread instead (and long ago too)... I'm merely just discussing how people view videos in terms of substance and story. AMV theory talk basically |:

The bit about shuffling clips wasn't given as an insult, either. It's an attempt at helpful feedback. The reviewer didn't say "You should have shuffled these clips. Then you could have conveyed this story you were aiming for better." That would be overreaching his bounds, adding insult to injury. "I wonder" is barely even confident. It's worded in the weakest way possible to say - "I assume you were trying to make this story, but I didn't quite get it because these pieces don't fit anywhere in the puzzle. Rather than overreach and say I think you screwed up in your presentation of a story with this video, I'll just note that it was a few clips shy of making sense."

Perhaps that wasn't the best example to show what I was going for.. but it does show a type of assumption that some people make when viewing a video.

Some people will always try to make sense out of clips that appear random to them. It's partly a knee-jerk reaction to make sense out of a vid that would seem pointless otherwise, because who would bother making a pointless video? And who would review a video he gets nothing from? These reviewers need a story with their vids, or at least expect one, so they're putting it together on their own and leaving feedback from there. If you really want to stop them from making that innitial assumption, preface your description with "there's no story here, if you leave an op, please don't assume there's a story, because there isn't." That won't stop the people who don't read the description, but it should tip off the ones who do. And it will keep those people who expect and want a story from downloading your videos.

Of course people are going to have pre-conceptions and I'm not trying to stop them nor am I actually looking for a solution, to try and change people's minds by hammering them over the head with 'excuses' for why a video doesn't have a story... that's not the point. My thoughts are based on showing people that there is more than one way to see a video.. and using a story as a guideline to see that progression is only one way of presentation. It is not the a standard for which all videos should be judged.

Random action vids are open about what they are, so no one expects stories from them. I don't think there are enough videos to make up a genre for "storyless emotion-based collage vids". Until there are, you'll have to tell people what type of video you're making. Otherwise, they won't know how to look at it and they're going to compare it to the known types of videos - most of which are story-based.

I think you're taking some of this too literally.. in hat.. I'm no trying to be an advocate for "storyless emotion-based collage vids".. I'm merely discussing the other possible views in which a video can be seen or presented. And I do not know where you are getting your figures.. but do you have any qualitative proof that "most videos are story-based"? That may be how YOU see them.. but that does not mean its true. |:

How could they know that was not your intention? Did you tell them? Were they supposed to have watched some other video that would prepare them to instantly recognize what sort of amv you had made? Unsolicited ops are based on the video and how the viewer interprets that video, with possible influence from the vid description. If the video isn't self-explanatory and the vid description doesn't tell you what you're watching, the reviewer has only his own interpretation to go on.

Once again, this misses the point.. I don't expect anybody to know anybody's else's intention... which is why I beleve that an opinion should be stated as an opinion.. not as a fact... Based on their own perception, people should know that the framework for their perception is limited and shouldn't try to impose their views on others as fact.

Really, this would be like me not putting romance down as the category in one of my yaoi vids and then getting furious with a reviewer who complained - "I know this wasn't your intention, but the guys looked a little gay in this. If you cut out some of those mushy scenes, it wouldn't look so gay."

I'm not getting frustrated or anything about this.. I just wanted to discuss the issue of how limited the views of some people may be in terms of story and substance... talking about myself and my own videos are just the tools and examples that I'm using to bring about that point simply because I know myself better than anyone else... I would not be able to discuss this matter using other editors and their videos as an example :\

...actually, I've done that. But I was only annoyed for a few minutes! I was quick to put the appropriate warnings in my video to forestall other such reviews, and I've continued to put explanatory notes in all my vids since then. Knee-jerk reactions suck. But you can avoid a lot of them by telling people what they're downloading before they download. Keep them from assuming one wrong thing after another and ending up with the least helpful feedback possible.

If that's how you combat those type of reactions then more power to you.. but I wanted to bring up this discussion to shed some light to those that have a narrow-mind about these ideas. |:

[Beowulf]

Koop, I would take comfort in the fact that anyone who's opinion is worth anything, doesn't suffer from your original post's complaints.

All it is, is immaturity. Its the same logic as people not liking a song because it doesn't go verse -> chorus -> verse -> chorus -> climax. People will grow and develop and learn that the limits they see are self impossed. Until then, all you can do is smile and completely dismiss anything they say.

I get reviews like that quite often, you are not alone.

[Fall_Child42]

no offence koop but this thread is hurting my brain >.<

I agree!