"Phade is a Spineless Coward"

[JaddziaDax]

you wrote that we should negociate that AMVs arent coppywrite infringement...

I didn't. Thanks for your input, but you completely missed my point.

actually i didnt miss the point, i just took one part of your entire post and debated that. ignoring the rest of it. just as you did to mine right there.
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heres the perfect example to your argument about "banned words":

I would think that the music companys would be scared for their money because if we don't buy their music then their fucked. They start off on their bullshit about copyright laws and they could totally be screwed if we didn't buy their CD's. I think we need to put them in their place. Their totally dependant on us.

and this is the reason for some of those strict rules... the fact that this community advocates that we go out and buy the CD to get the music, thus negating the music industry's stance that they are losing money, when we advocate that members should spend money to get the music we want, and not get it from file sharing programs...

so therefore not allowing members to discuss file sharing programs on the forums makes it look like we are atleast trying to enforce that... better to not mention those scarry words in our very public forums, would it not?

it only makes us look better to the music industry in the long run... so I dont see how this is a problem, and I completely understand why we have that rule on the site.
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as for no edit function, perhaps in the long time ago past, people would insult/flame others or whatever, then change it and by the time the mod came around theres no evidence left.... this isnt "assuming that everyone is a jerk, or that we are all retards", this is to keep community harmony.. and not allow offenders to "take back" things they might have done to disrupt the harmony... it only takes a couple of people to ruin it for the rest of us... (of course I'm only guessing, but it makes alot of sense to me, and thats how I rationalized it for myself)

yea, I find no edit function sometimes annoying, and rarely do i use correct puncturation or captalization or grammar (nor do i really care) and sometimes I want to go back and change things, but oh well... who cares, as long as people can read it then I dont care... the edit button function isnt THAT big of a deal to get all upset over...

so you cant edit your post. who cares... its not like its going to kill people to show a couple of spelling mistakes anyways, and as you pointed out, if it is that big of a deal then people can use the preview button...

(though an edit function in journals would be nice XD *ahem*)

either way the rules are the rules, no one is assuming anything cept that you have read them and you will follow them because you signed up and youre posting. you agreed to those rules when you signed up O.o.. if you dont like them then create your own AMV site and make your own rules, then you can be the tyrant.
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as for the rest of your argument, I still feel that Phade did the best he could in his situation. and I agree with Madbunny, go and read the original posts... I was on the forums when the original posts hit the Site Announcements... there was panic for atleast a good month... several people debating on how it was handled and how it can be handled in the future...

there are still ways around the no local or external links... because no one is stopping you from uploading it to a file hosting program, or youtub<a>e</a> if you really want to... and there is no one stopping you from creating your own site to share them from, the only thing they are stopping is allowing you to host it locally and to link from animemusicvideos.org:

I have 5 Music Videos that are not anime, they cannot be hosted here, I have placed them on other sites like youtub<a>e</a> and on myspace and two of them are currently on a file host. I dont list them here because it is against the site rules, they are not anime so therefore its against the rules to list them here, and in no way would i dare HOST them here... people still find them and they still download them... and the ones that arent available I sometimes get requests for them, so I will do a temp host for them when someone wants them. I have no problem with this, as its the only way I can get them out... there are other communities for me to advertise my MVs in and I usually go those sites to show them off....

its can be considered the same with the AMVs with those bands, but do to the agreement Phade made with Wind-up they must not be distrobuted from here. End of Discussion.

theres more than one amv community. this just happens to be the biggest. which is why most people perfer to host and list their videos here. I respect that, and maybe in the future we may get AMVs to fall under Fair Use clause, but untill we do the most we can do is wait.

some people have bigger priorities than their favorite hobby... some people have families to worry about, and I respect that. for those that dont have families to worry about, let them fight the good fight, they have the time for it, let them do it...

[amvwizard]

*hugs phade for taking good care of us*

yes yes hugs hugs i feel like a child of phade... lol thats kinda werid

[Coderjo]

Ironically, fansub stuff might be the most legit since it's unlicenced.

Technically, any unlicensed material falls back the the default "All Rights Reserved" license, which means you are not allowed to do anything with it.

[Ainaelle]

Ok, I see now. Most of the things mentioned there are all pretty much established parts of keeping the site running smoothly form what I can tell.
Things like 'word replacement', edit functions and topic locks all have their place. There are, and have been plenty of suggestions on ways to bring back items like the OT forum, and edit functions for donators etc.. Pretty much it looks like that's not going to happen. That is all forum related though, and hence not really all that big of a deal, at least not to me. Mostly it has the flavor of mods trying to be objective in their control while still maintaining

I you could edit your post, I'd know what you wanted to say in the last sentence... Anyway, since the forum is the place where admins interact with users, I believe what goes on here is representative for the whole site. And there is some strange paradox in the way the Org acts: on the outside, it tries to look like a niche fan site, but on the inside, it excercises the *AA-mentality, that everything potentially illegal is illegal and should be prohibited (analogy: all men should be arrested - they have penises, therefore are rapists). It makes no sense.

I'm inclined to agree with you on the amatuer fansite issue, I can't see that working forever. I can't see a (practical) solution to the problem either.

Getting backed by EFF or similar organisation could be an idea. But this won't happen as long as the Org acts like I described above.

I can't really see a valid solution here. Well, no actually, I can. The .org can return to simply being a database and stop hosting videos altogether. To date I haven't seen anything that lets us have our cake and eat it too. The only real way to solve it is to change the law. While I can't predict the future, I can say that it seems pretty unlikely. Just the act of ripping a dvd to hard drive is illegal, to mention all the RIAA stuff with the music. Ironically, fansub stuff might be the most legit since it's unlicenced.

You could move hosting to a country where *AAs won't reach you. Though this would mean admitting that AMVs are harmful and something to be ashamed of, and that the site, in the eyes of it's very own administration, is no better than a pedophile ring. Then again, the way the Org acts now is basically the same, only to a lesser extent.
As for changing the law, I'd think a site that big could have enough voice to be heard, and to lobby for changes in the law that benefit the consumers first, and then the companies (as opposed to benefiting only the companies and screwing the consumers in the ass). Not on itself, but with help of organisations and more respectable individuals.

I don't think you've been getting automated responses.

I got this feeling after reading Kalium's last post.

The real problem is that there isn't a satisfactory solution. You mentioned transparency. What areas do you think are being hidden from the users? Other than a direct transcript of Phades meeting with the people at windup, I got a pretty good feeling for what happened in his posts. Going back and reading them gives you a pretty good sense of the breathless panic, and various attempts to salvage what ever is possible.

Maybe this one case is not the best example. But often annoucements from the admins or mods carry the "we know better what's good for you, don't worry, don't ask questions, keep playing, and we'll take care of everything" feeling. At least for me. And I for one don't like being taken care of in such way. That's vague, but maybe you'll get what I mean.

If you have rational workable solutions for what you've suggested as problems I'd like to know what they are.

- edit function: enable it, and in case of abuse punish the perpetrators, not all actual and potential suspects.
- taboo words: stop acting like a ridiculous circle of conservative grannies who get seizures upon hearing the word "penis".
- future C&Ds: see above.


=-----------------------------=

actually i didnt miss the point, i just took one part of your entire post and debated that. ignoring the rest of it. just as you did to mine right there.

Your opening statement proved that you did miss my point. I cut your post, because it was for the most part irrelevant, and for remaining part redundant.

and this is the reason for some of those strict rules... the fact that this community advocates that we go out and buy the CD to get the music, thus negating the music industry's stance that they are losing money, when we advocate that members should spend money to get the music we want, and not get it from file sharing programs...

It's been years since I bought a CD or DVD without listening to the music or watching the movie first. It could have been otherwise if the prices were reasonable (and the economic situation better, but that's more of a local thing), BUT either way, an album/movie downloaded from p2p is NOT a lost sale, it's a POTENTIAL sale. The record/movie industries need to finally learn that. And, as I said above, the Org, representing half a milion users from around the world, can do it's share in teaching them that.

Unless it starts DRMing the videos it hosts.

so therefore not allowing members to discuss file sharing programs on the forums makes it look like we are atleast trying to enforce that... better to not mention those scarry words in our very public forums, would it not?

it only makes us look better to the music industry in the long run... so I dont see how this is a problem, and I completely understand why we have that rule on the site.

In other words, brown-nosing the (big) companies and *AAs, and reassuring them that they are right. And that in being right, they should shut the Org down immediately, because it illegally hosts and distributes copyrighted content. Way to cut the branch you sit on.

as for no edit function, perhaps in the long time ago past, people would insult/flame others or whatever, then change it and by the time the mod came around theres no evidence left.... this isnt "assuming that everyone is a jerk, or that we are all retards", this is to keep community harmony.. and not allow offenders to "take back" things they might have done to disrupt the harmony... it only takes a couple of people to ruin it for the rest of us...

They already did! With help of the admins, who crippled the forum functionality for the rest of us.

and as you pointed out, if it is that big of a deal then people can use the preview button...

This again proves that you either didn't read my posts carefully, or just lack some basic reading comprehension.

[ssj4lonewolf]

all i gotta say is this, because this shit will go on forever, you ainaelle will keep trying to defend yourself, while everyone will continue to bash.

1. WTF, why the fuck does it matter what phade did in the past about this shit, its in the past and hes looking forward to the future

2.Having no edit button isnt the end of the fucking world, fucking get over it, if its not there its not there.

3. Dont like the forum rules, fucking leave the forums and dont come back, simple solution to this simple problem.

4. Stop bashing the man for doing what he had to do to protect his intrests. Since this is his site, his server, and he wants to keep it open. The funny thing is, its not even for him, he does it for everyone else .

You guys are just ranting bashing and aruging over one stupid ass point after another, but ppl need to relize it doesnt fucking matter, the org is up and running and proly wont stop for a while. So what if you believe Phade is a "spineless coward" or whatever the fuck you wanna call him, he made a right choice in doing what he needed to do. No one wants to get sued for somthing as simple as deleting a few videos...

[Coderjo]

(a bunch of stuff)

First off, let me point out that, thanks to the the Berne Convention, anything someone creates (in a country that signed the Berne Convention) is copyrighted as soon as it is created. You have to register your copyright in order to legally defend your copyrights, though. You can probably defend them without registering them, but it is many times harder.

Technically, what we do here with Anime and Music is create unauthorized derivative works of the anime, and usually wholesale copying of the music. This is fine for your own personal enjoyment, but you can't legally distribute them, publicly perform them, etc. without proper consent of the holders of the copyrights of materials you used to create your derivative work. Derivative works are subject to the copyright of the original works used.

We don't have any legal grounding to stand up to the recording industry or anime companies, since we don't have permission to distribute their copyrighted works. The recording industry also has many orders of magnitude more money to throw at legal representation and lobbying than we do. The fastest way to get the site shut down and the people responsible for it in trouble is to piss the industry off.

I seem to recall reading in the original annoucement threads that Phade received the C&D order and spent a day or two discussing it with Wind-up's legal representation about what could be done. Eventually, it came down to only taking down links to videos using those three artists. If Phade had taken the hard line and said no, things would have, with greater than 90% certainty, been much worse. The record label would have then had to sue the Org and Phade, and with near certainty, would have won their case. Phade wouldn't have been able to defend himself and the site, partly because of the sheer cost involved in obtaining legal representation, and partly because the law is on the record label's side. And properly licensing everything is pretty much impossible. Much of this was covered in the original threads about this, if you bother to read them, and ignore the uninformed posts.

Sites like youtube and google video essentially can allow people to upload due to provisions in the DMCA that hold a service provider harmless until the existance of an unauthorized posting of a copyright work is brought to their attention, and upon receiving notice, remove the offending content. You bet your ass that google video and youtube are going to pull the content when they receive such notice. They're not going to risk their business going against the content industry. That's suicide.

__________

The edit button is disabled in most forums because the administration believes that users should be required the THINK before they post. Having the edit button gives people the ability to post without thinking things through and then go back and erase what they said.

You were probably not around in the beginning, but for the first few years, the site used forum software called Phorum. Phorum didn't have an edit button anywhere. It just was not part of the feature set. One of the other critical features it was missing was the ability to appoint moderators. Back in those days, Phade was the only person that could police the forums. Spamming and flaming and such got out of hand, prompting the forums to close numerous times in order to clean up the mess.

In short, too many rotten apples have caused enough trouble in the past that they spoiled the fun for everyone else. Arguing to "get back" and edit button that was never there is futile. It will never happen.

__________

As far as forum rule 7, it all depends on the context and the program. Bittorrent is not too much of an offense by itself, since you have to know where to go to find data to feed it, and it has many non-infringing uses. Mentioning other programs specifically designed for infringing is a definite problem. Especially programs with built-in search capabilities.

[Willen]

There comes a time when the Idealist must make way for the Realist. In the perfect world, every video would be available and all the owners of the media would be happy, friendly chums who encourage creativity and don't care about profits and control of their creations. Unfortunately, the world is not like this.

If you are so adamant about not bowing to the *AAs demands, why don't you set up your own AMV site wtih video hosting and try and see what happens a few years down the road once it gains popularity and the notice of the industry. I feel the solution to the issue was vastly preferable to the alternative which could have entailed the loss of all the local downloads. Some members here might not mind that happening much, since they either have their own web hosting or would go back to using file-sharing programs. In fact, if you think you have a better way of running an AMV site, then do so and prove it to me. This "take no prisoners" and "all or nothing" attitude doesn't work too well in the real world.

And there is some strange paradox in the way the Org acts: on the outside, it tries to look like a niche fan site, but on the inside, it excercises the *AA-mentality, that everything potentially illegal is illegal and should be prohibited (analogy: all men should be arrested - they have penises, therefore are rapists). It makes no sense.

Um, you forget, the Org is doing something technically illegal by hosting copyrighted material and allowing the download of such. I'm sure that fact should be very clear.

As for the whole no editing posts issue, I prefer it this way, and would hate to see what kind of havoc some bored numbskull would create and then erase. Look at the real world, Microsoft got away with a bunch of anti-competitive things because they "lost" some e-mails. How wonderful to be able to erase embarrasing or iincriminating things about yourself. I'm sure that the guys at Enron would like to be able to change history also. So what if many post have errors like mis-spellings, bad grammar, wrong links, and all your typical net-speak goof-ups. It's not like we are being graded on accuracy or clarity. If it bothers you that there are errors in your posts that you cannot correct, then take more time to proof-read your replies and use the preview function.

Anyways, why the hell am I writing this reply? I have some anime to watch.

[Prince_Majin_Trunks]

This site is suppose to be a catalog of AMVs first and foremost. Hosting is just a bonus that Phade included. youtub and Google Video are going to have far more problems in the future then Phade and this site has ever had. Simply because they are more high profile. Phade plays by the rules, and he's not here to fight legal battles for other people. He hosts out of generousity not some obligation to provide these videos, and/or fight for the legal right.

-Anneke

couldn't of said it better myself. The sites orriginal purpose was a catalog of amvs, a place to list the ones that have been maid. Even after taking down the download links for thoughs spefic videos it still continues to list them thus the site still going by its orriginal purpose; Phade is still having the site do exactly what he intended it to do.

[JaddziaDax]

It's been years since I bought a CD or DVD without listening to the music or watching the movie first. It could have been otherwise if the prices were reasonable (and the economic situation better, but that's more of a local thing), BUT either way, an album/movie downloaded from p2p is NOT a lost sale, it's a POTENTIAL sale. The record/movie industries need to finally learn that. And, as I said above, the Org, representing half a milion users from around the world, can do it's share in teaching them that.

Unless it starts DRMing the videos it hosts.

congrats you are a music industries wet dream, if there were more people like you then the american music industry wouldnt be so scared...

did you even read anything about what happened with Napster? they were suing 12 yearolds... because they were afraid that they were going to lose money if they allowed Napster to continue...

now there are respectable people like you and me who will buy the DVD/CD after downloading it (I do it cause I want a better quality) but not everyone in the world is like that...

once again it only takes a few people to ruin it for the rest of us. I know several people who enjoy their free ride so much that they will refuse to buy a CD... I personally believe in supporting the Industry that I enjoy.

so therefore not allowing members to discuss file sharing programs on the forums makes it look like we are atleast trying to enforce that... better to not mention those scarry words in our very public forums, would it not?

it only makes us look better to the music industry in the long run... so I dont see how this is a problem, and I completely understand why we have that rule on the site.

In other words, brown-nosing the (big) companies and *AAs, and reassuring them that they are right. And that in being right, they should shut the Org down immediately, because it illegally hosts and distributes copyrighted content. Way to cut the branch you sit on.

well now, we ARE after all using THEIR coppywrited material arent we? if we disreguard that they can come in at any time and tell us to shut down. I personally feel that that position that the .org has taken is one of the few things that has kept us from not being shut down so quickly... why bite the hand that feeds you?

and as you pointed out, if it is that big of a deal then people can use the preview button...

This again proves that you either didn't read my posts carefully, or just lack some basic reading comprehension.

whats wrong with using the preview button? its there, its so you can make edits to your post, if you dont want to use it then its your decision. either way your argument over edit functions in the forum has already been decided, either live by the rules or as i stated before, create your own site with your own rules...

I read your post and insulting my reading comprehension and intelligence just makes you look like a jerk. You were the one who pointed out that there is a preview button there, not me. granted you said that this came from a previous post, but its still a valid statement no matter how you put it.

[amvwizard]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Iam tired of this discussion.... the more we talk to more likely some bullshit will happen. Though i do recommend that noobs do read this thread. So that they don't go talking to music companys again.....