"Phade is a Spineless Coward"

Bakadeshi · Post by **Bakadeshi** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:52 pm

hmmm actually thinking on this, Ainaelle does have a point. the Forums rules state:

"There shall be no posts containing or on how to obtain warez, crackz, serialz, emulators, porn/hentai, bootlegs, or illegally obtain downloadable anime episodes, music, or any other sort of copyrighted material. You will be banned without warning for such posts."

The post that was edited did not state on how to obtain warez cracks, serialz, anime, etc.... It stated an alternative on how to share and download AMVs. If the same post had mentioned that you can get anime, cracks, whatever on that same program, then it would have been a breach of the rules, but I fail to see how the post as it was written had actually breached that rule. The point that anything can be gotten anywhere on the internet is a valid point.

Of course, if amvs fall under the "any other sort of copyrighted material" clause, then there has been many post in the past that linked to other sites to share Live action music videos, not to mention AMV sites to all the members in their profiles... that is allowed and goes unedited.

On the other hand, I do understand we just want to protect the site with those rules, but if you don;t want the linking of P2P programs since it may present a risk, (especially since Music industries generally don't like them), then that should be added specifically as an amendment to the rules.

Ofcourse we can argue points like this all we want, but the rules are just a guideline and the site admins/Phade pretty much are the dictators and can enforce a rule however they see fit. Can be compared I guess to how the supreme court has to determin how some laws should be enforced in grey areas such as this. I just think in such grey areas, better explanations should be given instead of just linking to the forum rules.

Corran · Post by **Corran** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:40 pm

b) ACTUAL valid reasons for disabling the edit function entirely, i.e. other than assumption that all people here are by their very nature stupid and abusive?

The edit function isn't disabled entirely across the forum. I personally don't see it being abused much in the places that it is enabled but it is Phade's rule and as the owner of the site he can set the rules how he wants. Sorry there is no better explaination, but that is how it is. Maybe it will be available forum wide in the future but that may be a ways off.

You're in a position to know that there WON'T be any in the future, really? That's good to hear.

He said he was in a position to know that there have been no threats since the wind up records issue. He never said will won't see anything in the future.

As for the removal of a site/network name from a post, I agree with Bakadeshi it is a gray area. I think Phade's original intent was to prevent people asking/finding/using downloaded footage in their amvs and to buy the DVDs and, while he was at it, expanded the rule to include other illegal activities. If someone goes to a site to share amvs and it has illegal content on its site/network then that person runs the chance of finding and using said downloaded footage. While that is a risk, I don't think we are here to mod in such a way and become the internet's police men. Perhaps it is something that needs more clarification.

Anyways... can we please get back on topic?

I'd add something myself to the discussion but Madbunny seems to have already hit the nail on my position...

JaddziaDax · Post by **JaddziaDax** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:56 pm

Ainaelle wrote:
Kalium wrote:Under US law, it's pretty clear that distributing AMVs is copyright infringement. The artistic value doesn't nullify that. Additionally, the record label has contractual obligations to live up to, which presumably include enforcement of their copyrights. Clearing the AMVs would be lengthy and expensive process, since it would have to involve the band approving of each and every one, among other things. It gets ugly. And expensive, since the proper licensing fees would have to be paid to assorted organizations. This would set a precedent, likely compelling the Org to go that route wholly, which more than likely would kill the Org entirely. The music industry does not take kindly to those such as us.
I can't see how is this related to what I wrote above.

you wrote that we should negociate that AMVs arent coppywrite infringement... when infact according to US LAW they are coppywrite infringement...

no matter how you look at it, unless we use our own music that we hold the coppywrite to, and use our own drawings that we drew ourselves, and characters that we created on our own, then an AMV is infringementing on BOTH the music and the anime... as is all Fanvideos.

when it comes to coppywrite Distrobution is the key word here when it comes to US Law... AMVs havent had the previlege to fall under "Fair Use" yet... and even if they did, they are still ment for entertainment not education... (atleast when it comes to MOST viewers)

its like putting on a concert using photo coppies of sheet music you didnt pay for or not paying the licencing fees for a play production and holding the play anyways.

the people holding those coppywrites will want the money that they are supposed to make off of it. granted some people can turn a blind eye to it and that is their choice... but others might not feel the same way... its not up to us to dictate their choice...

I still think that Phade made the right choice... this site is not strong enough for a full scale legal battle...

and I'm sure that Phade did what he could... weather or not we know all the details or not it doesnt matter... he did what he could.

but remember this is a FAN site NOT a COOPERATION. fan sites have much more limited resources than cooperations who can afford the lawyers and fees to go into legal battle... and thats what this tiny fansite would be going against: cooperation...

thing is... if people want to fight the "good fight" and find better alternatives, fine do it... go out and fight it... just dont mention this site till you WIN... cause I'd hate to see this site DIE because someone wanted to shove it in the limelight...

Wind-up could have shut us down. they didnt. isnt that something to be thankful for?

Pyle · Post by **Pyle** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:17 pm

I find it funny that he bitches Phade out for caving in when YouTube caved in to SNL for hosting the Lazy Sunday skit.

Also, a-m-v.org hosts the files at vastly higher quality and with their own codecs instead of the flash video codecs that youtube and google video use.

Ainaelle · Post by **Ainaelle** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:53 am

Corran wrote:
You're in a position to know that there WON'T be any in the future, really? That's good to hear.
He said he was in a position to know that there have been no threats since the wind up records issue. He never said will won't see anything in the future.

In the previous post he did, and that's what I was referring to:

Kalium wrote:As for your forecast of hellfire, chaos, and damnation, there haven't been any new C&Ds. Nor did Wind-Up come back and demand that AMVs using other artists of theirs be taken down. That's rather telling, since I know that more than one music industry person is aware of us.

JaddziaDax wrote:you wrote that we should negociate that AMVs arent coppywrite infringement...

I didn't. Thanks for your input, but you completely missed my point.

madbunny · Post by **madbunny** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:37 am

Ainaelle wrote: you completely missed my point.

What exactly is your point? In general, I mean.

As far as I can tell; you disagreed with Phades actions/reactions to the C&D. While you're pretty good at countering the arguments of others, and to some degree even stating your own, you are not really moving the conversation forward in a real way.

Essentially, you've derailed this topic beyond the scope of it's original intent. I'm surprised it hasn't been either renamed, or locked at this point.

Shinodude · Post by **Shinodude** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:50 am

man people who complain this much about what happend pisses me off, I can stand a little " man this sucks my amv got deleted" or "dang I cant get that video now" it does suck that great videos got deleted but this thread is downright annoying! man sombody please lock this thread

SSJVegita0609 · Post by **SSJVegita0609** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:02 am

Your FACE is a spineless coward!

Lyrs · Post by **Lyrs** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:22 am

Now that we've come this far, why don't everybody say something so the redundancy can reach page 42?

Ainaelle · Post by **Ainaelle** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:09 am

madbunny wrote:
Ainaelle wrote: you completely missed my point.
What exactly is your point? In general, I mean.

As far as I can tell; you disagreed with Phades actions/reactions to the C&D. While you're pretty good at countering the arguments of others, and to some degree even stating your own, you are not really moving the conversation forward in a real way.

How the C&D thing was handled is only a part of it. Saying that I disagree with disabling access to the vids is not precise - I disagree with that being the only action taken. And my general problem is not with this particular situation, not with the edit function thing, not with enforcing taboo on commonly known words - but with the strange mixture of corporate-like control of information philosophy and attempts to remain an amateur fansite behind those issues. Which I believe is very inadequate to this site's character and size, and dangerous in the long run.

Don't get me wrong - I wish well for this site, that's why I'm voicing my opinions. Mistreating fans (i.e. assuming they are retards and abusers, being overprotective and non-transparent) will turn against it. So will pretending to the outside world that it's something different than it is.

The latter perhaps even sooner. If, as Kalium said, the site is being monitored by record companies, then they are sure well aware of the Wind Up incident. How do you think pretending that nothing happened look in their eyes? Do you think it's possible for a site with half a milion users and hosting nearly 100 thousand videos with copyrighted content to stay in the grey area and remain unbothered? I don't think so.

The "It's been okay until now, we managed to minimise the Wind Up damage, so now be grateful, stay quiet, and hope no one else will notice us" mentality is just hiding your head in the sand. In Org's shape and situation, it's the worst it can do. If nothing changes, then it's not "if", but "when" the site is taken down, probably with bad consequences to many people. That's why I'm concerned.

madbunny wrote:Essentially, you've derailed this topic beyond the scope of it's original intent. I'm surprised it hasn't been either renamed, or locked at this point.

It turned out that way. Perhaps it got a bit too specific. But as I said above, I believe all the issues I mentioned are related. I don't mind if the "no edit button" part gets moved to Site Feedback. I just really hope to get an honest, non-automated answer and comment to my questions and points. From Kalium, or someone else "in a position to know".