I'd like to add that reviewing the rules written on the category suggestion page also makes this idea obviously invalid.trythil wrote:Same rationale the U.S. government used to extend U.S. copyright law: we've done it before, we should be allowed to do it again.DriftRoot wrote: Jeez. Where's the explanation for that "should not" statement?
Just substitute "we" and "we've" with appropriate forms of ".org administration". They have made it very clear, year after year, that VCA categories will have nothing to do with specific anime series or characters. Their decision.
New kind of contest/ranking opportunity
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trythil
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SarahtheBoring
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2002 11:45 am
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Re: New kind of contest/ranking opportunity
I don't want to pile on, but your opening reason confuses me.
If your tastes are entirely in line with the majority, then the star scale is for you. Those are essentially votes from everyone who's downloaded a video, at least for videos on local hosting. So all you'd have to do is search on the parameters you want (series, musical artist) and sort by star scale. Bam, there you have it, quality according to popular vote.
It's already in the system and it's fairly simple.
So...everything is crap, and you don't want to bother watching anything if it's not 100% golden... so... you'd watch more if you knew before you started what was golden? And... you believe that majority rule / vote is the final arbiter of objective Good in videos?DriftRoot wrote:As more and more AMVs are added to a-m-v.org's database, sifting through the thousands and thousands of submissions becomes more difficult. Searching for a good Beck AMV or, god forbid, a good Advent Children AMV is almost a needle-in-the-haystack endeavor.
Yes, you can look at star ratings and such, but the search is still rather touch and go and ratings don't tell the whole story. Quality, little-viewed videos, particularly of older anime series, are easily overlooked by new AMV enthusiasts who really have no clue what they're missing. I personally would watch far more AMVs from a much wider range of anime if I was presented with a convenient, reliable way of tracking them down.
If your tastes are entirely in line with the majority, then the star scale is for you. Those are essentially votes from everyone who's downloaded a video, at least for videos on local hosting. So all you'd have to do is search on the parameters you want (series, musical artist) and sort by star scale. Bam, there you have it, quality according to popular vote.
It's already in the system and it's fairly simple.
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codehappykid
- Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:25 pm
Also, about judging, I've actually thought about this in relation to other things.
Judging can be a multi-tiered process. For example, the system at the org has two distinct types of ratings, stars and opinions. I think it's easy to see that the star rating is quick and easy and likely to gather the most actual pieces of data, but the opinion system tends to be more accurate, except in the occasional cases of some grumpy sob or, conversely, someone with an account name like 'LoveSesshy' reviewing an Inuyasha vid. But I digress. The point is, no single judging system is going to be without its problems.
I suggest the following possibilities as methods that might or might not mesh with each other to create a judging system:
1) Ye Olde Tourney method. Totally random pair-offs, with winners advancing up the tree. At each level, victory in a single pair-off is determined by the number of votes. As a potential extra pruning device, you could automatically eliminate both vids in any pairing where the total votes was less than, say, 50, 100, something like that.
2) The Eternal Challenger! On a periodic basis, you could accept challenges to the top vid in each category. You could collect yes/no votes for whether it beats out the top one or not, and replace the king of the hill with the highest voted challenger as long as it beats a yes-vote minimum, probably at least 1000.
3) You might also have a system for ranking not the videos themselves, but the actual voting "quality" of each registered amv fan/artist. Maybe that value could play into the vote tally somehow, but we'd have to be careful here too so that people don't get boosts in this ranking without deserving it.
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Once again restating what I said, which is I think what some other people have also said: this contest could be done on the website of the positor of the concept, and links to videos here at the org would be just that - links. Now whether this raises an alarm regarding bandwidth at the org or not is for others to determine.
These are a few thoughts, back to the woodwork now.
Judging can be a multi-tiered process. For example, the system at the org has two distinct types of ratings, stars and opinions. I think it's easy to see that the star rating is quick and easy and likely to gather the most actual pieces of data, but the opinion system tends to be more accurate, except in the occasional cases of some grumpy sob or, conversely, someone with an account name like 'LoveSesshy' reviewing an Inuyasha vid. But I digress. The point is, no single judging system is going to be without its problems.
I suggest the following possibilities as methods that might or might not mesh with each other to create a judging system:
1) Ye Olde Tourney method. Totally random pair-offs, with winners advancing up the tree. At each level, victory in a single pair-off is determined by the number of votes. As a potential extra pruning device, you could automatically eliminate both vids in any pairing where the total votes was less than, say, 50, 100, something like that.
2) The Eternal Challenger! On a periodic basis, you could accept challenges to the top vid in each category. You could collect yes/no votes for whether it beats out the top one or not, and replace the king of the hill with the highest voted challenger as long as it beats a yes-vote minimum, probably at least 1000.
3) You might also have a system for ranking not the videos themselves, but the actual voting "quality" of each registered amv fan/artist. Maybe that value could play into the vote tally somehow, but we'd have to be careful here too so that people don't get boosts in this ranking without deserving it.
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Once again restating what I said, which is I think what some other people have also said: this contest could be done on the website of the positor of the concept, and links to videos here at the org would be just that - links. Now whether this raises an alarm regarding bandwidth at the org or not is for others to determine.
These are a few thoughts, back to the woodwork now.
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Corran
- Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:40 pm
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In all honesty, the only obvious thing is that it won't happen at the org. That doesn't mean it can't be discussed politely in a manner that codehappykid and others have. Please post in the mod drop box if you have problems with a thread instead of throwing it off topic by calling for a lock.Prodigi wrote:in all honesty, with the obvious reasons for why this couldn't go forth, i'm unsure why this hasn't been locked yet, before it deteriorates further
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Willen
- Now in Hi-Def!
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With the sheer number of anime available, there are going to be alot of categories. Even if you eliminate all of the lesser known or one-shot anime that still leaves a huge number. I admit, the majority of AMVs use a small fraction of the available anime titles produced, but where do you draw the line? Like Malificus said, if someone used a very little-known anime and ended up with the only AMV that used it, even if it was crap, it would win by default.
I think the existing "Recommended AMVs" system works well. What it probably needs is more people watching more AMVs and listing the lesser known but well done AMVs to its respective forum. And combining the star ratings and opinion scales to a specific anime filter search, you could very well end up with AMVs that people have already stated that are the best "insert anime here" AMV. No contest necessary.
I think the existing "Recommended AMVs" system works well. What it probably needs is more people watching more AMVs and listing the lesser known but well done AMVs to its respective forum. And combining the star ratings and opinion scales to a specific anime filter search, you could very well end up with AMVs that people have already stated that are the best "insert anime here" AMV. No contest necessary.
Having trouble playing back videos? I recommend: 
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DriftRoot
- Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:18 pm
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Ok, a helpful individual informed me a little too late that there's apparently been attention paid to the "vote for AMVs according to what anime they use" scenario in recent weeks. Since no link was provided to me at the time I made a certain sarcastic post, however, the whole thing went completely over my head – hence the sarcasm. Please trust me when I say that I would not post a thread about something that's was recently debated elsewhere - that would be redundant. Debate hasn't recently taken place, though (see below)
Before that, though, a little clarification as I continue to dig my own grave. My idea keeps wavering between a VCA-type award and a ranking/rating concept, so I should take a stand on the matter. Because a "best of" list would be open to every AMV uploaded at any date, this is fundamentally different from annual VCAs, though votes could certainly be tallied while the VCAs are going on. Being an ongoing opportunity for recognition, a "best of" ranking would be similar to how the top 10% scale works.
That said, here's what I now know that I didn't know before a certain sarcastic comment - the seven VCA award categories listed below are probably what those of you who keep saying my idea has already been brought up and shot down are referring to:
Best Series Overview
Best Portrayal of Series / Series Preview
Best Introductory Video
Best Anime Tribute
Best Single-Source Video
Best video that turned you towards an anime
The "I Bought It" Award
None of these are what I’m proposing and none of these received a reason for rejection at all - a discussion vacuum, as it were. The following category proposal, however, received the rejection that Scintilla applied to my first post:
Best Loli AMV
AMV that best uses Loli
REASON REJECTED: Categories should not be based on anime series/characters.
Look familiar? Yes. What’s odd is that this individual isn't suggesting votes be taken on a specific series/characters, yet that is the reason it was rejected. There’s anime out there that isn’t Loli, but could be so depicted by a creative individual and tossed into a “Best Loli” category. It would still be comedy, action, drama etc., however, and the "we already have a way to judge that kind of AMV" is (IMO) a better reason to reject the proposed Loli category. People make comedy AMVs out of horror anime, drama AMVs out of action anime, what’s important is not what series these AMVs use, but the end product.
AHA!! *pounce* See! I just said it’s not important what anime AMVs use when judging them - for the VCAs. People are pretty pleased with the Recommendations forum, which largely contains “Best of [blank] anime” threads. Why does that forum exist at all if, according to the powers that be, the evaluation of an AMVs accomplishments “should not be based on anime series/characters?” I'd concede that the forum does handle my ranking idea, but only to a limited extent. The series identified in that forum are some of the most well-known, and there's many suggestions given for each series as to what's "the best" AMV out there - if enough suggestions are made, there's a point at which that forum no longer serves its original purpose - to identify what's TRULY the best.
Several people don’t want bad AMVs winding up as “best of." I never said I did, either, and suggested a way around this. Several people are concerned about the enormous task of sorting through all the AMVs out there by series, but we’ve got a good start in the Recommendations forum, and the AMV database is set up to ID AMVs by what anime they use. Other people demand I set up my own Web site with a "best of" series ranking system and leave a-m-v.org out of it, but that doesn't promote objectivity or validity.
*pulls the lid closed on her coffin* Don't make me turn into the walking undead. Thanks for everything. In the future, when rankings, ratings and contests again come up in the forums, we can refer back to this thread to uphold our respective positions on the matter or, even better, point the querying individual to this thread immediately so they may make a better-informed attempt to justify why the matter needs to be brought up all over again. I know I'll certainly provide a link.
Before that, though, a little clarification as I continue to dig my own grave. My idea keeps wavering between a VCA-type award and a ranking/rating concept, so I should take a stand on the matter. Because a "best of" list would be open to every AMV uploaded at any date, this is fundamentally different from annual VCAs, though votes could certainly be tallied while the VCAs are going on. Being an ongoing opportunity for recognition, a "best of" ranking would be similar to how the top 10% scale works.
That said, here's what I now know that I didn't know before a certain sarcastic comment - the seven VCA award categories listed below are probably what those of you who keep saying my idea has already been brought up and shot down are referring to:
Best Series Overview
Best Portrayal of Series / Series Preview
Best Introductory Video
Best Anime Tribute
Best Single-Source Video
Best video that turned you towards an anime
The "I Bought It" Award
None of these are what I’m proposing and none of these received a reason for rejection at all - a discussion vacuum, as it were. The following category proposal, however, received the rejection that Scintilla applied to my first post:
Best Loli AMV
AMV that best uses Loli
REASON REJECTED: Categories should not be based on anime series/characters.
Look familiar? Yes. What’s odd is that this individual isn't suggesting votes be taken on a specific series/characters, yet that is the reason it was rejected. There’s anime out there that isn’t Loli, but could be so depicted by a creative individual and tossed into a “Best Loli” category. It would still be comedy, action, drama etc., however, and the "we already have a way to judge that kind of AMV" is (IMO) a better reason to reject the proposed Loli category. People make comedy AMVs out of horror anime, drama AMVs out of action anime, what’s important is not what series these AMVs use, but the end product.
AHA!! *pounce* See! I just said it’s not important what anime AMVs use when judging them - for the VCAs. People are pretty pleased with the Recommendations forum, which largely contains “Best of [blank] anime” threads. Why does that forum exist at all if, according to the powers that be, the evaluation of an AMVs accomplishments “should not be based on anime series/characters?” I'd concede that the forum does handle my ranking idea, but only to a limited extent. The series identified in that forum are some of the most well-known, and there's many suggestions given for each series as to what's "the best" AMV out there - if enough suggestions are made, there's a point at which that forum no longer serves its original purpose - to identify what's TRULY the best.
Several people don’t want bad AMVs winding up as “best of." I never said I did, either, and suggested a way around this. Several people are concerned about the enormous task of sorting through all the AMVs out there by series, but we’ve got a good start in the Recommendations forum, and the AMV database is set up to ID AMVs by what anime they use. Other people demand I set up my own Web site with a "best of" series ranking system and leave a-m-v.org out of it, but that doesn't promote objectivity or validity.
*pulls the lid closed on her coffin* Don't make me turn into the walking undead. Thanks for everything. In the future, when rankings, ratings and contests again come up in the forums, we can refer back to this thread to uphold our respective positions on the matter or, even better, point the querying individual to this thread immediately so they may make a better-informed attempt to justify why the matter needs to be brought up all over again. I know I'll certainly provide a link.
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Scintilla
- (for EXTREME)
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I remember seeing this one on the short list and wondering if someone had picked the wrong preset reason or something...DriftRoot wrote:The following category proposal, however, received the rejection that Scintilla applied to my first post:
Best Loli AMV
AMV that best uses Loli
REASON REJECTED: Categories should not be based on anime series/characters.
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Arigatomina
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:04 am
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If we could just get a 'sort by anime' filter for the top 10 list, we'd have our ranking and an easy way to find vids according to anime. And no, the super search isn't the same - the search by reviews option looks at the number of reviews received, not the score given in those reviews. We already have all sorts of neat filters for the top 10 list. Adding a 'by anime' filter section would make it possible to find not only the most popular DBZ/Naruto/Eva vid, but the cleanest/best synched/most original/coolest effects one as well.
I assume the recommend vids forum was made because it's too difficult to add a 'by anime' filter to the top 10. All the other threads in that section are redundant - you can already search by horror/action/dance in the top 10, and you get better results since it's not just the forum-regulars doing the ranking. Actually, there is no ranking in the RA forum - it's just forum regulars telling what they liked. It's like having them post their favorite vids list, except the vids are separated by anime or category. Also, the recommend amvs forum doesn't include sections for underused series that have only a few hundred videos unless someone specifically asks for it - and even then, no one posts in the threads because the forum-goers haven't watched the videos. Those same rare-anime vids have reviews, though, quite a few for some of them. Some are already on the top 10 list, you just don't know it because there's no way to sort the list by anime.
I don't see any sort of contest/voting-based ranking working for this sort of thing. You just won't get enough people to watch the vids, or to recommend them in the first place. The review system is your best bet, and with the excellent break down on the top 10 list, it already has all sorts of options that are better than a simple "this vid got first place, don't ask me why" contest page. What we need is a way to merge the 'search by anime' page/system with the top 10 filter system. Or just change the way the "order by review" on the super search is set up so it ranks according to the top 10 rankings - and not by the number of reviews received. I still don't get why the super search is ranked by the number of ops received when every vid on this site with over 8 ops has a hidden top 10 number that's already been calculated according to score (as well as ops received). Can't we just switch the number being used?
I assume the recommend vids forum was made because it's too difficult to add a 'by anime' filter to the top 10. All the other threads in that section are redundant - you can already search by horror/action/dance in the top 10, and you get better results since it's not just the forum-regulars doing the ranking. Actually, there is no ranking in the RA forum - it's just forum regulars telling what they liked. It's like having them post their favorite vids list, except the vids are separated by anime or category. Also, the recommend amvs forum doesn't include sections for underused series that have only a few hundred videos unless someone specifically asks for it - and even then, no one posts in the threads because the forum-goers haven't watched the videos. Those same rare-anime vids have reviews, though, quite a few for some of them. Some are already on the top 10 list, you just don't know it because there's no way to sort the list by anime.
I don't see any sort of contest/voting-based ranking working for this sort of thing. You just won't get enough people to watch the vids, or to recommend them in the first place. The review system is your best bet, and with the excellent break down on the top 10 list, it already has all sorts of options that are better than a simple "this vid got first place, don't ask me why" contest page. What we need is a way to merge the 'search by anime' page/system with the top 10 filter system. Or just change the way the "order by review" on the super search is set up so it ranks according to the top 10 rankings - and not by the number of reviews received. I still don't get why the super search is ranked by the number of ops received when every vid on this site with over 8 ops has a hidden top 10 number that's already been calculated according to score (as well as ops received). Can't we just switch the number being used?
