[Split] Posting Links to Anime Clips

[Wheee_It's_Me!]

You didn't prove me stupid. ^_^

I didn't, huh?

You proved yourself anal. And you completely missed the point.

No, I'm fairly certain I hit the nail right on the head actually.

Wrong. The clip in the original movie is *in* the original movie. The clip you linked was taken from a second-hand illegally distributed source. It wasn't taken from the anime itself, so it is not a 'raw' clip. If you don't understand what I mean by the use of the word 'raw', I mean taken directly from the anime source, aka the dvd itself - not a second-hand distributed source (fansubs/bootlegs/amvs/downloaded episodes).

Oh look, you're trying to argue semantics now. Oh but hey, we can play by your rules, it's okay by me. Okay everybody, new rule, as long as you aren't straight ripping and posting the VOB files off the DVDs, then it's all OKAY to post...Arigatomyna says so.

But again, that wasn't the point. I know you support it yourself, but the site does not want to promote the distribution of anime online.

And how EXACTLY is posting a 10 second clip doing that? Careful now, Sunshine, it's starting to rain on your parade and you're on a slippery slope.

They've made a distinction where amvs are concerned. If they start allowing short 'raw' clips, how are they any different from the DBZ websites where you can download certain 'favorite' scenes free of subtitles and lacking audio? There is no difference - except we'd be doing it under the assumption (hope) that no one will collect those scenes for a video.

Um...how would that be bad? If they collected all those lil clips and made an AMV and if it was good...uh, wouldn't that ENCOURAGE people to want to go and buy the DVDs so they can have a copy of the real deal?

And in fact, by posting their "favorite scenes", that in itself ALSO encourages DVD sales. Cause eventually someone is gonna come along and say, "WOW, that is a great clip! Now I'm interested! I wanna go and buy/rent the series!"

That's the problem we have to address if you want to see the site allow 'raw' anime clips. How to keep it from being just another source for clean, albeit short, anime clips - most likely of the best scenes in the respective anime.

Well number one, most of the people here are gonna be using said clips for making AMVs, which we've already established boost DVD sales. And the raw clips themselves, unless you're planning on posting 9+gigs of material, yeah, they're not much more than teasers to entice people into buying the DVDs.

Right now they snuff out even a short anime clip - because once they start allowing them, they'll be no different from those other anime websites - distributing choice anime excerpts for whoever wants to download specific scenes.

Again I ask, what's wrong with that? And if you say it's hurting their sales, by all means, back up your bullshit with some statistics.

[As I said in my first post, it's an ethical matter and the idea of keeping this website as an *amv* collection/distribution - not an online anime source.]

This site is also about the construction and implementation of AMVs though too, in which case posting small clips TO BE USED IN AMVs wouldn't be an issue at all. At least as far as DVD sales go, which as AD has stated, is the .orgs primary concern (not the ethics of it all).

[Arigatomina]

Oh look, you're trying to argue semantics now. Oh but hey, we can play by your rules, it's okay by me. Okay everybody, new rule, as long as you aren't straight ripping and posting the VOB files off the DVDs, then it's all OKAY to post...Arigatomyna says so.

You're so clever. ^_^

And how EXACTLY is posting a 10 second clip doing that? Careful now, Sunshine, it's starting to rain on your parade and you're on a slippery slope.

Right, right. Can't reply without sticking your nose in the air. I explained the problem with linking to small clips in my post - reread it, you seem to be skipping a good paragraph or two.

Um...how would that be bad? If they collected all those lil clips and made an AMV and if it was good...uh, wouldn't that ENCOURAGE people to want to go and buy the DVDs so they can have a copy of the real deal?

Are you hearing yourself? If they can make the vid with free clips, why would they need to get the dvds? They'd already *have* the clips they need. Just ask anyone who makes vids with fansubs and downloaded clips - if they can get it without buying it, they're happy. Sure, lots of people would rather have the dvds - but those people wouldn't be downloading the clips to begin with - they'd go buy the anime itself.

And in fact, by posting their "favorite scenes", that in itself ALSO encourages DVD sales. Cause eventually someone is gonna come along and say, "WOW, that is a great clip! Now I'm interested! I wanna go and buy/rent the series!"

This I agree with - but they can see those 'favorite scenes' in amvs. Don't want to discourage those people who scour amvs looking for anime they might be interested in. ^_^

Well number one, most of the people here are gonna be using said clips for making AMVs, which we've already established boost DVD sales.

You didn't establish it. You said it. You didn't prove it. Saying something doesn't make it true. Remember when you told me to show you proof before I spouted off about things? Follow your own advice. I never said I established anything because I *didn't* show proof. But then, you didn't show proof either. Pot. Kettle. Black. You're funny.

And the raw clips themselves, unless you're planning on posting 9+gigs of material, yeah, they're not much more than teasers to entice people into buying the DVDs.

I like to think they would inspire people to check out the rest of the anime. But this is an amv website. Most of the people who ask for specific scenes, and clips for specific scenes, are wanting those clips so they don't have to buy the dvds. We'd be giving them what they want and removing any chance of them ever buying the dvds - they won't need to, if people give them clips of the scenes they're looking for.

Again I ask, what's wrong with that? And if you say it's hurting their sales, by all means, back up your bullshit with some statistics.

When did I say anything about sales? AD said that in another post. My name, as you mentioned earlier, is Arigatomyna. Reread my post. I never said a word about sales until this reply I'm writing at this very moment. o.O

This site is also about the construction and implementation of AMVs though too, in which case posting small clips TO BE USED IN AMVs wouldn't be an issue at all. At least as far as DVD sales go, which as AD has stated, is the .orgs primary concern (not the ethics of it all).

I admit, I replied before I read what AD wrote in that other thread. I was going by the forum rules Phade posted, not by what AD had written (since I hadn't seen what he'd written). Phade made quite a few comments about why they didn't want downloaded footage used on the site. One of the biggest complaints he had was the quality - not the sales. He wanted to discourage any type of 'downloaded' source for footage or audio. He didn't want people to use amvs for footage and he didn't want people to use clips for footage. So he disallowed clips - since he couldn't very well disallow amvs on an amv website. All I did was reply with what I *thought* was the idea behind the 'no linking to downloadable anime' rule.

But since AD says it's just about sales, forget it. I appologize. ^_^;; I'm still learning about how the new owners feel about certain subjects. I didn't mean for you to take my words as gospel.

[Calim]

Look just put some music behind your 15 second Anime Clip and it will be ok, now stop bitching about it.

Although I totally agree with the thread's maker, links to small 15-20 clips should be allowed.

[derobert]

First off, please keep the debate impersonal. Second, if you're not part of the site administration, please make that clear if the content of your post gives any doubt.

Anyway, after talking to AbsoluteDestiny tonight the policy of removing all clips has been changed, or at least suspended for now. To quote him, "short clips used for on-topic discussion not provided as source footage are permitted."

So, under this policy, the clip posted in this thread would be allowed, whereas a request for "time 14:03 through 14:15 of episode 3 of whatever for my kickass video" wouldn't be.

The reasons for disallowing downloaded footage to be used in videos may well have changed since Phade started the site several years ago; certainly, back then, there were serious technical drawbacks to using downloaded footage, much more so than today. However, we all (the site admins) agree that producing, translating, and distributing anime takes time and effort, and that the people who do so deserve to be compensated. The site's policies are designed around that.

[Arigatomina]

Second, if you're not part of the site administration, please make that clear if the content of your post gives any doubt.

I thought the point of having visible admin and hidden mods was that anyone not publically a part of the administration is to be automatically considered a regular member? Should everyone preface their posts with "I am not a part of this site's administration" now? Or is it just me. o.O

Hatter has argued with me in a number of threads - he knows I'm just your noob/nobody member. He just got fired up after reading AD's post and replied to the wrong person. But if you want me to make it clear before I speak that I'm to be ignored, I'll do so.

[Wheee_It's_Me!]

First off, please keep the debate impersonal.

Seems to be going pretty impersonal to me, I don't think anyone has started crying over any of this or anything.

Second, if you're not part of the site administration, please make that clear if the content of your post gives any doubt.

There's no sense in doing that. As far as I or anyone else should be concerned the only persons whose reply can actually be taken in the context of new/revised policies would be from AD. Anyone else, including you, ya, I'm not and I doubt anyone else is taking you with a very high degree of seriousness.

Anyway, after talking to AbsoluteDestiny tonight the policy of removing all clips has been changed, or at least suspended for now. To quote him, "short clips used for on-topic discussion not provided as source footage are permitted."

I'll believe this when AD actually says it personally (ie not through you).

So, under this policy, the clip posted in this thread would be allowed, whereas a request for "time 14:03 through 14:15 of episode 3 of whatever for my kickass video" wouldn't be.

What is the definition of "source footage"? Are you referring to straight VOB rips, high quality reencodes or ANY piece of video footage given within the context of "I'm requesting a specific clip?"

Furthermore, how do you define the distinction? For example if you say it's okay to post as per on topic discussion and I happen to need a clip from say Yu Yu Hakusho to finish my video, what would stop me from starting a Yu Yu Hakusho thread and asking, "Hey, does anyone have that clip of xx, it's like my favorite clip!" Or going into an existing Yu Yu Hakusho thread and twisting the topic to try and suit the needs of what you're looking for?

Is it just REQUESTS for SPECIFIC footage that aren't allowed?

The reasons for disallowing downloaded footage to be used in videos may well have changed since Phade started the site several years ago; certainly, back then, there were serious technical drawbacks to using downloaded footage, much more so than today. However, we all (the site admins) agree that producing, translating, and distributing anime takes time and effort, and that the people who do so deserve to be compensated. The site's policies are designed around that.

Yes but to be used in what context? Essentially you're accusing AMV makers of using source footage for something other than making AMVs. I for example rent DVDs through Greencine when I want to watch a series, so the DVD production companies are getting compensated for my watching the series. Now if I go and start making AMVs and using source footage from the DVDs, what does that have to do with their DVD sales? You're trying to link two completely indirect things. WATCHING an anime series is not the same as MAKING AMVs out of it's source footage.

*insert various legal precedence regarding uber-conservative EDITED FOR CONTENT movies, such as Titanic (kissing/naked/love scenes removed)*

I see the point you're on, but you don't seem to be able to see around it. Basically from your perspective you're worried about the other side using it as an excuse. Basically releasing WHOLE episodes and then saying, "Oh, I'm releasing them for the AMV makers, not for people who want to WATCH the series".

So how about this. For REQUESTED clips for MAKING AMVs, disallow the audio and disallow clips with subtitles. Simple enough. After all, the audio shouldn't be needed to make the AMV and without the audio or subtitles it wouldn't even matter if you had the whole episode in raw format or not, you wouldn't have anything that could be used in a WATCHABLE context. At that point the only viable purpose it can serve is to people who want to cut it all up and make an AMV out of it.

[AbsoluteDestiny]

OK this is the way I think it should work.

Requests for clips and posts satisfying requests shouldn't really be allowed as it is providing someone with something that usually they would need to shell out cash for. It's possible that we may be lenient with this rule in some circumstances but it will have to be judged on a per-post basis I think. In most cases the answer would be no.

However, after due consideration, people are freely allowed to post short clips from things if it is to benefit some point of discussion (good examples would be something like posting a clip of a bad technical problem that someone wants advice on or possibly posting a clip to aid discussion of a particular scene).

Provided that the clips that are posted are not posted to intentionally supply a person with footage in substitute for the official product then they are fine (of course they should also be on-topic, not porn etc).

Long clips (over a minute) are in more risky territory... if it's obvious that there is a good reason for a longer clip then it is permitted but on the whole they are not recommended. I'd expect this situation to be rare and for people wanting to post a long clips to ask the question "when you say short clip - how short? Can I post this 5 minute scene from blah in this thread about shuchanshuch"?

I hope that makes things a little clearer. Essentially it all comes from the same principle about discouraging people who dont want to pay forthings but we've not really been asked to make a specific ruling on issues like this before.

[Cloud Clone]

I'm not absolutely sure, but I think this is the first time I've fully agreed with a point made by AD, and I didn't even have to come in and make a point of my own...oh, what a wonderful day! Good job AD! ^_~ d

[billy_wires]

You know, I never really thought of using clips in conjunction with a discussion. It might prove worthwhile, but I doubt I'll ever use the freedom, mostly because I'm lazy.

You made a good point, Hatter. Now if only you didn't come across so roughly sometimes.

[Wheee_It's_Me!]

You know, I never really thought of using clips in conjunction with a discussion. It might prove worthwhile, but I doubt I'll ever use the freedom, mostly because I'm lazy.

You made a good point, Hatter. Now if only you didn't come across so roughly sometimes.

I'm a magnificant bastard most of the time...it's just the way I am. ^_^