What rights does the viewer have?

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UncleMilo
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Re: Wait a second

Post by UncleMilo » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:05 pm

Derek T - You're trying to argue too many points.

Let me see if this sums it up for you.

You complained that the ending of Trigun was an unresolved thing. You said you didn't like Trigun because it was one of those animes that just ended with everything still in doubt and therefore it had no resolution.

I came in and said that Trigun most certainly does have an ending. I pointed out the message of Trigun and all the things in the story that point to the fact that the message was there and the ending was solid.

You argued that you didn't like that message.

Well... that's two arguments.


I get frustrated in these kind of discussions.

If you don't like the message of Trigun, that's your opinion, but if you say Trigun has no solid ending, then you're wrong. It has a SOLID ending.

Now... why I am angry is you have put words into my mouth that I never said. When you say things like
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"You think Trigun ended perfectly and its really unimportant that Knives will probably kill everyone after he wakes up because the writers just didn't feel the need to go there, fine.
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Look at how many flaws there are in that statement.
1) You accuse me of saying this, which I never did.
2) You are drawing a conclusion... all the time arguing with me about drawing conclusions. You say it is most likely Knives will get up and kill everyone... so you have made a decision based on interpretation. Since you have now adopted this view, let me shoot it down with a simple question. DO YOU HONESTLY THINK WITH WHAT YOU'VE SEEN IN THE SHOW THAT VASH WOULD ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN? From the show, we know that Vash made the choice to kill Legato when it came down to killing Legato or letting Meryl be killed by Legato. Therefore, we can assume (based on Vash's behavior and the strength of his character as written in the show) that if Knives tried to get up and kill people, that Vash would do whatever he could to stop it. In fact... if all that matters to you is if Vash will beat Knives or not, then you already have your answer. Yes. Vash beat Knives.
3) It is my belief, given the detail of the world and the detail of the characters and the detail of the story that the writers didn't feel the need to go there because they gave you enough information for you to grasp where the story had headed. The story simply said that the human race... the SEED project... would thrive because of people of good will.

Going to my Hitler example... Hitler was evil and killed millions... but he was stopped because the world knew that Hitler was wrong and we united to stop him. THe show is telling us the same thing! Just because we stopped Hitler doesn't meant there won't be some other Hitler-type some day... hell... look how many people Pol-Pot killed and how brutal all that was!

4) You need to have some arguments. There are many on this board who love to ignore all I write and simply fall back on telling people that I say "you have to like things because I said so." However, if anyone was paying attention, they would see that I defend all my arguments with examples. I do my best to explain my points. You, on the other hand, have not done this. (You don't have to... but if you're going to argue against the creator of the show... or against fans of the show, you're going to have to find ways of defending your view)

In an attempt to be clearer:

There are some movies I really enjoy... but I know they are terrible movies. They are shitty, badly written movies... but I still like them. I could never defend them as good movies, but I can still say that despite the fact this movie sucks, I enjoy it.

Likewise, I can see a movie and acknowledge that it is a well crafted movie, but still not like it very much.

However... if you don't like something... and you blame the creator for not liking it... you best have some arguments to justify your views.

You talked about the Star Wars: Episode 1 (at least I think you did)

I can tear that movie apart. I can use internal examples from the film and point out why I believe the movie is bad. I actually wowed some people by explaining how the first Teenage Mutant Turtles movie used better direction in their story telling than Star Wars: Episode 1 did (it was pretty cool watching their faces)



Anyway...

this is a very hard topic to debate though... and it can be frustrating...

Taste and Talent are such hard things to separate.


Well... that's all for now.

-Uncle Milo
There are two kinds of people in this world:
Those who divide people into two kinds of groups
and those who don't.

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bum
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Post by bum » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:06 pm

with eva, depending on how you looked at it, it it could iether have a perfectly complete story, or one that was......blah. as far as i care, it was as complete as a story could get

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UncleMilo
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Post by UncleMilo » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:18 pm

Arigatomyna wrote:
UncleMilo wrote:So you're saying if a majority of idiots don't get something that is complicated, then it's the writer's fault for not writing only stuff that the masses can get? Are you saying that no writer should ever be allowed to write about complicated material because there's just going to be too many people who don't get it and therefore, the army of people who didn't get it get to decide that it is bad and therefore the writer is at fault.
You missed my exception. There's nothing wrong with a book or anime or movie or painting or *anything* that can only be deciphered by those who put serious thought into it and can read references to other genres (your opera reference). That's brilliant. But in that case, the creator *wanted* to have something people would have ot think about. He didn't try to put something out where 12 yr olds will understand it at a glance. My point was that you judge the creator's 'intention' - if he meant for it to be accessible to all and it isn't accessible then he failed. If he meant for it to be something only a scholar can understand then he did great.

Dwchang called me on this point - we can't tell what a dead writer intended with 100% accuracy, so we can never know for sure if we are judging him on the right set of goals. But we can still make an educated guess and use that 'intention' as a basis for judgement.

OK...

I apologize if I misunderstood you...

I think another factor we need to throw in there is education as well. I hate to say it, but the Japanese school system is a lot better than the American school system (America's students aren't even in the top 10, which is a travesty)

A show that might be aimed for 12 year olds in Japan might very well go over the heads of 17 year olds here in America.

OK... that's painting it a bit broad, but I think you might see where I'm going here.

Anyway... most of the time when I run across people who complain about a show, it often seems that they missed a lot... (especially Evangelion)

Some of these people want their word to be law. (Just had to mention one example - I got into an argument on Evangelion with someone I considered to be very articulate on the board... however, they seemed to insist that Shinji chooses to beome part of the human liquid blob... that he chooses to be merged with all other people... and I kept pointing out that the CHAPTER ITSELF is called "THE BEAST THAT SHOUTED 'I'" I mean... how much clearer than that do we need to be? What term better gets across the idea of individuality than "I".

I want... I went... I did... I got... I sang... I think... therefore I am...

The person simply didn't even want to acknowledge what I was saying... despite the clear evidence presented in the show... the blatant, obvious evidence, he refused to even consider the point I was making.

That gets frustrating.



Anyway...
I certainly appretiate reading what you write... it helps me better define my own views in the argument and find stronger ways of expressing those views.

-Uncle Milo
There are two kinds of people in this world:
Those who divide people into two kinds of groups
and those who don't.

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Arigatomina
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Post by Arigatomina » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:34 pm

UncleMilo wrote:I think another factor we need to throw in there is education as well. I hate to say it, but the Japanese school system is a lot better than the American school system (America's students aren't even in the top 10, which is a travesty)
Yes, the target audience is a big factor that people tend to leave out when they watch anime or talk about 'intentions' of the creators. Some anime are directed toward people familiar with certain customs, people who think in certain ways - others are direct and 'in your face' about the storyline. I think it's usually self-evident which type of anime you're dealing with if you have a way of comparing it to others - at least as far as 'simple' versus 'complicated' goes.

And I *do* think Eva was aimed for those who tend to think things through and look beneath the surface - in that view it definitely accomplishes what it sets out to do. Whether I like it or not doesn't matter in this case - I'm not in the target audience so I don't *have* to like it - it wasn't *made* so I would like it or even understand it. The main time I see an anime failing is when it leaves its target audience confused without meaning to.

But that's all over the place - I was just trying to set a way you *can* judge anime the same as you'd judge anything with a storyline. I admit, I can't judge something I don't know much about (painting for example - I can only judge it on whether or not it accomplished the emotional response it aimed to get from me as a viewer). But books or movies or anime with a storyline I can usually understand the ways they frame their messages, so it's easier to see if they are flawed when it comes to making their target viewers catch that message.
UncleMilo wrote: Anyway...
I certainly appretiate reading what you write... it helps me better define my own views in the argument and find stronger ways of expressing those views.
Thank you. ^_^;; I tend to ramble, but I usually have an idea of what I'm trying to say ahead of time. It's just a matter of whether or not I get sidetracked from that. :?

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Flint the Dwarf
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Post by Flint the Dwarf » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:47 pm

Arigatomyna wrote:I tend to ramble
No. *gasp*

Why is it that I always get to these topics once all the points I would've brought up have been adressed? :?
Kusoyaro: We don't need a leader. We need to SHUT UP. Make what you want to make, don't make you what you don't want to make. If neither of those applies to you, then you need to SHUT UP MORE.

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Why I can't I draw that conculsion

Post by derek_t » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:05 pm

Actually I was making a general statement pointing out the obvious.

Do I think Vash will allow it to happen? I don't think Vash would want it to happen, but I don't see how Vash could nessecarily stop it. Thought you are right, I did say no conculsion. I should have said unsatisfactory conculsion. And be naming it where I did, it seemed I was stating it as fact and not just opinion, and I was wrong for doing so.

Now, I get to jump in. You are DW seem to also be saying that one can never say a paticular point is wrong and that an anime can only be judged based on if the message is delivered. Look, there are things call subjective facts. These facts are made up by life experience. So if I say hey "the writer is wrong". I'm saying based on my life experience its wrong. Thats why I'm saying at times "the view is wrong". Because from my view it is fact that the creator is wrong. I have always allowed you to disagree with me on this becuase I understand that the view is different on your side. That why I reject Trigun's ending, because humanity will not be saved by goodwill alone. My view, you can disagree with me.

You two also seem to be saying that the creator can do whatever he wants to tell the story. Using Lord Of The Rings for example, what if near the end of film things look bleak for Frodo when all of a sudden Aragorn yells out "Quick, use your heat ray eyes Frodo". The recaction would be something along the line as "BS, he never had heat ray eyes before, what the hell do they think their pulling". There is a line where a viewer will start rejecting what hes seeing and that line is different for everyone.

Now, I get to say something. You know what started this all. Me putting down my opinion and having it get confused for fact (and a misstatement about Trigun being non-conclusive). Something that I always take for granted is that I assume that people will understand when I write something thats its opinion. So tell me dw and Milo, was it your fault you assumed I'm stating facts. No, it was my fault. I can't assume you can guess the when I'm making a statement as opinion or fact. Likewise with anime its not my job to know everything the creator is saying. Using the example you gave about the anime and opera. Is it bad because the creator added something people didn't know about, no. Its the viewer wrong for not knowing it, no.

To be honest, I think I took the coments personally without realize where both of you were coming from. After that it became a debate about what creators can and cannot do. I pretty muched summed up my opinion. Ok, now is there anything else I have maybe misunderstood?

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Re: Why I can't I draw that conculsion

Post by UncleMilo » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:54 pm

Actually... this whole thing started because you labled Trigun as one of the many anime titles that came to an end before the story had actually reached its ending on a different thread.

I came in and said that Trigun had a solid ending and explained the structure of the series using example from the series to show why it ends where it does and why it is a solid ending.

You changed your tune, saying you didn't like the ending. That it is wrong.

As I keep saying over and over again, you don't have to like the ending... because that's opinion. I was defending the writer because he told a complete story and you accused him of not doing so.

Oh... and you once again did your over simplifying and putting words in my mouth. I never said the MESSAGE of Trigun is that humanity will be saved by goodwill alone. The story of Trigun (once again) is that Vash lives with a philosophy that there is a way of solving problems with out having to resort to violence. Over the course of the show, Vash solves problems without resorting to killing... he keeps finding solutions that don't require killing... Knives is convinced that Vash is a fool and that humanity is foolish because they are contradictory, just as Vash's attempt to save "both the spider and the butterfly" is contradictory. He keeps trying to force Vash into changing his view. The real turning point is where Vash has to kill Legato to save the lives of others. It is a horrible moment for Vash, because he is forced to kill... Knives would see this as a victory... but in the final conflict, Vash makes the choice to continue to struggle to find peaceful solutions. He defeats Knives and instead of killing Knives, he is going to try to show Knives that the contempt and hatred Knives has for the human race is wrong and try to show Knives a different path to walk down. Vash clings to his philosophy. That is a very complete story and a good, optimistic message. At no point is there a message that says that because Vash keeps his philosophy does it mean that the world will become a good and happy place... and that all crime will end and all violence will cease. It means that VASH has made his choice... he has chosen not to surrender to the contradictions of man kind... not to give up his struggle to try to show people a better way... and he will try and try... and maybe some others will follow his example.

Let us not forget the old saying "Whoever saves one life, saves the world entire."

Actually... we weren't saying a writer can do whatever he wants. We're saying you have to have evidence to prove your point. You can't just say "this writer's wrong because I said so." Furthermore, if you don't agree with the writer's message, that doesn't make the writer a bad writer.

Your example is right - If Frodo suddenly had heat beams with no forewarning of this ability, that is some very sloppy writing.

However, you attack Trigun based on your own personal experiences and I find that dubious at best. Have you ever hated someone and instead of just harboring that hate, actually worked to get past it and try to honestly forgive that person and go on?

However, in my example - if an anime fan didn't know opera and accused the writer of bad writing... and then someone came along and said, well... I know opera, and here is why it is good writing... this would be evidence to prove the person on the other end as being wrong. The other person could continue to dislike the anime... but he would be wrong if he said the writing is bad.

IN this one example, the person with the complaint was ignorant of facts needed to appretiate the story. Someone with the information has come along and helped explain the story... therefore, he has shown that the writing is good using knowledge he has acquired. In a perfect world, the first person should then re-evaluate his position., but more often than not, the person will continue to say it's bad (mostly because people don't like to be in the wrong)

I'll tell you anout my own personal experience. A friend of mine loved the movie "The Cell" and told me to see it. I saw it and thought it was kind of a bad movie, but I loved some of the visuals... and those visuals were what kept me from hating the movie.

However, a year later, another friend of mine saw that I had "The Cell" in my movie collection and asked me how I could have stuck an incredible piece of shit like that in my collection. I told him that I thought the movie was mediocre, but that it had great visuals. He then went and showed me how almost all those visual were blatant rip-offs from some older, foriegn films. Some were scene-by-scene rip offs. Once I had this new knowledge, I realized that "The Cell" was indeed, an incredible piece of shit. I had gained new knowledge and with it, I had to rejudge what I was watching. My opinion was based on ignorance of the plagerism... (and so my opinion was wrong) and now that I new of the plagerism, I quickly sold my copy on e-bay and got it out of my house.

Anyway, I have to go... so I got to cut it here.

-Uncle Milo
There are two kinds of people in this world:
Those who divide people into two kinds of groups
and those who don't.

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Post by jonmartensen » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:56 pm

Christ people, they're fucking fictional cartoons. It's not like there is some historical reference from which one can draw conclusions about the accuracy of the portrail of something. It all comes from someones imagination, and that someone is not you. You can not tell the writer of a fictional story that they are writing it wrong simply because it is fiction. You can dislike the way things go, or say "that's stupid", but unless you wrote the story and someone then changed it, you have no right to say it is wrong.

TRIGUN IS A FUCKING FICTIONAL STORY ABOUT A PLANT MAN TRYING TO RESOLVE EMOTIONAL ISSUES ON A DISTANT PLANET IN THE FUTURE. THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG, IT'S FICTION!

You don't understand the reason behind how a story (made several years ago) ended. Whoop-de-fucking-do. You mean nothing to the anime, and will change nothing. People that understood it, or accepted it, will still like it. The only thing your whining and argueing accomplishes is annoying other people, and making you look foolish.

Subjective fact, you do know what that means? You certainly aren't using it as if you do. Either that, or you are confusing "wrong" with "it doesn't make sense (to me)".
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UncleMilo
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Post by UncleMilo » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:08 pm

jonmartensen wrote:Christ people, they're fucking fictional cartoons. It's not like there is some historical reference from which one can draw conclusions about the accuracy of the portrail of something. )
I have argue with you here. Often, not always, but often, fiction will be used to a tell a stroy that relates back to the human condition. Look at Cowboy Bebop. It is a science fiction series with fictional characters, but many of the episodes still relate to us as people. The reason Cowboy Bebop is such a successful series isn't just because it is well animated and has a great soundtrack (I can think of some well animated movies and series with equally good soundtracks that were still utter crap)... the added element is good writing... Writing that makes us think... maybe think about our selves... maybe think about the things around us... maybe just makes us open our creativity a little more... and of course... some of the writing is just entertaining because it is clever and/or detailed.

Hell... "Waterhship Down" wasn't just a story abour rabbits... it was a metaphor for England (and Europe) during World War II.

"M" was also a Metaphor for the rise of Hitler's Reich. It was a disguised warning to the people of Germany.
There are two kinds of people in this world:
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Post by Jonathan02us » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:29 pm

Well i feel very strongly that as a viewer of anime, i have to right to say whatever and whenever i feel about anime. I dont think people have to right to say that im wrong cuz that is my opinion and people have different opinion. I respect other peoples opinion so i feel that i should be respect too.

If i didnt like a certain anime then that doesnt mean that the writer or the creater of the anime is incompetant or didnt work hard on the anime, im sure that have and they put their all into it. What im just saying is my opnion and thats it.

I felt that the Love Hina series didnt give me a true feeling of conclusion, i dont kno weither they got married or what. So what i decided to do was to read the manga, which i feel is better and gives me a better feel for the story.

In conclusion, i feel that everyone has the right to say what they want, freedom of speech, just as long as it is not hurting anyone else like discrimination, because that is just straight up wrong. :x
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