Love

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MistyCaldwell
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Post by MistyCaldwell » Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:21 am

Kamoc wrote:
MistyCaldwell wrote:umm...the point of that remark was that humans were meant to eat meat.
..then your entire argument makes no fucking sense.

our teeth depict what we eat, yet our gender depicts the fact that we don't need to have babies.

and all this time i thought my dick was a crudely-formed belt buckle.
The point of my arguement was that we can choose to do what we want to with our minds. Nature created us in a vertain way, and we don't have to follow it. It makes perfect sense and has nothing to do with gender, the point of this whole thing was love's origin and it got side tracked to pair bonding. It doesn't have to make sense to everyone for it to make sense :roll:
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Kamoc
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Post by Kamoc » Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:55 am

MistyCaldwell wrote:Nature created us in a vertain way, and we don't have to follow it.
that's why i pointed out the fact that vegans are pale, skinny and extremely fragile. nature didn't create us in a certain way, it created humans in a broad way so that we have the best chance of survival through evolution. if we didn't need incisors, we would evolve them off eventually. if we didn't need to have babies, we'd all be dead. there's a difference between keeping your evolutionary options open and being downright indifferent about it.
MistyCaldwell wrote:It makes perfect sense and has nothing to do with gender..
so.. people aren't born with a sexuality, yet they clearly have teeth.

but then again, you can 'choose' to mold your mind like that, because there's no clear right or wrong in this situation. time to go stack up on some more tofu burgers and be terrified of other people's pocket fans.
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Otohiko
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Post by Otohiko » Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:37 am

I'd never avoid anything just on principle, I only avoid stuff that I know is bad for me or others... and I was always a big meatetarian and never gave a damn. It's part of our historic diet, and not nearly as harmful to nature as other things which I successfully phased out of my life.

Ironically, I haven't eaten any meat in a long time and I don't know if I will anytime soon. A recent allergic outbreak and my weak immune system have placed me on a strict non-meat diet.

Geez. I'm scared someone will one day mistake me for a vegetarian.

Since when has this turned into a vegan topic ladies and gents?
The Birds are using humanity in order to throw something terrifying at this green pig. And then what happens to us all later, that’s simply not important to them…

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)v(ajin Koji
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Post by )v(ajin Koji » Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:37 am

Kamoc wrote:so.. people aren't born with a sexuality, yet they clearly have teeth.
You aren't born with teeth
I'm bored and you're dumb. A match made in heaven.
- Kai Stromler to son_goten.
Last edited by )v(ajin Koji on Mon 21, 2011 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Otohiko
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Post by Otohiko » Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:40 am

You are, it just takes time for them to come out.
The Birds are using humanity in order to throw something terrifying at this green pig. And then what happens to us all later, that’s simply not important to them…

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jonmartensen
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Post by jonmartensen » Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:07 pm

Otohiko wrote:You are, it just takes time for them to come out.
:lol:
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hyperchica11
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Re: Love

Post by hyperchica11 » Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:19 pm

Tab. wrote:is a product of desire, which is a product of the reptilian and hypothalamic brains. Indeed, desire is something that provides a positive feedback when something beneficial is obtained, and negative feedback, or rather no positive feedback, when something beneficial is not obtained. The most significant thing in our pre-logical existance is reproduction, so the strongest desires are focused around this, and the most rewarding rewards are focused around positive feedback that there's a chance of mating.

Seems overly simplified, but it's true. That would explain why love is foolish, easily swayed, overrides logic, and causes such intense pain/pleasure when unfulfilled/fulfilled.

And it's intriguing. What is better? To purge oneself a la the buddhic way of desires, or not? The desires are not essential anymore, since we have the logical ability to say "hey, we need to have kids or the race will die off". They are easily swayed and lead to mistruth. They are the older and instinctive part of our being.
And what if we put them into disuse? What will evolve in it's place? A more evolved part of the brain? A higher form of logic?

Intriguing to the maxXx.

Note that I'm speaking of popular emotional love. The kind that causes the feelings around the chest cavity. The kind that causes huge happiness when fulfilled and huge problems when unfulfilled. The kind that's pretty descriptive of a lower function of evolution. Platonic or logical love is totally different.

Hmmm
/heavy thinking mode


NONONO COUSINNN!!!

Love is a song.... that never ends....... that's the name of a song from bambi... ANYWAY!

**obligatory song**

L! IS FOR THE WAY YOU LOOOOOOKKKKKK AT MEEEEEEEEE
O! IS FOR THE ONLY OOOONNNNNNNEEEEE I SEEEEEEEEEEE
V! IS VERY VERY EXTRAORDINARY
E! IS EVEN MORE THAN ANYONE THAT YOU ADORE CAN
LOVE! IS ALL THAT I CAN GIVE TOOO YOUUUUUUU
LOVE! IS MORE THAN JUST A GAAAAAAAAMMMEE FOR TWOOOOOOOO
TWO! IN LOVE CAN MAKE IT
TAKE MY HEART AND PLEASE DON'T BREAK IT
LOVE! WAS MADE FOR ME AND YOOUUOUUUUUUUUU.

you doesn't equal tab... or anyone else for that matter.

Love sucks.

i hate that song..

:shock:
<b>a.k.a. cheelala</b>

MistyCaldwell
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Post by MistyCaldwell » Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:02 pm

Otohiko wrote:
Since when has this turned into a vegan topic ladies and gents?
I have no idea, it was just a small example I used and cause Kamoc didn't understand what I meant, it's become the focus of the topic :o

To go back on topic, it's Thursday and I have the day off work so time to be a forum goon....


Tab. wrote:
And what if we put them into disuse? What will evolve in it's place? A more evolved part of the brain? A higher form of logic?
Humans like pleasure way too much for 'love' to ever leave our brain. Because, like everything we do, it's based on a biological response, prompt, or exercise.

Now for a quick biology lesson; oxytocin, the chemical of love (or could be the definition) is produced naturally in the hypothalamus in the brain. This chemical can be released in a number of pleasurable situations, not limited to massage, intercourse, or simply being in the presence of one of the people you have bonded with...or are in 'love wtih' :wink: How that gets started is a whole 'nother conversation that also begins and ends with chemicals.


Have you ever heard of people who break up and would trade anything to have them back? In actuallity, getting over someone after a break up is a lot like detoxing. It seems like withdrawl because it is.

It's withdrawl from the drugs the brain releases when you are around the person who can cause a release. Touching them gives a more intense release than just being in their presence, but even looking at a picture can induce the brain to release a wave of love drug.


But it's not all hearts and flowers. There are people who go from relationship to relationship and once they are through the 'in love' stage, they feel bored, restless, and generally unhappy with their partner. They feel that was when the intense chemical release period is over.

In most relationships, it's about 2 1/2 to 3 years. After that, aside from sexual encounters, the oxytocin levels drop to sometimes non existent levels. That is when 'habit' would take over if the pair bonding hadn't taken place, or if one partner didn't bond...you can't have a relationship if only one person wants it. It's not a coincidence that's about as long as the most critical stage in infant development.

Pair bonding was most likely developed to assist the couple in staying together for a greater part of the life of the children they might have. But...again...that is not contigent on there actually being a child between the couple. The nice thing about being human is that you can develop pair bonds without there even being a chance of spreading your genes. Those parts in the brain exist in nearly all people (some people can be born asexual...most likely they don't get any oxytocin from being around other people) and personality, finances, career goals can all take precedence over children and yet pair bonding can most certainly take place and oxytocin gets released by the brain.

Women tend to have a much wider and complicated response to oxytocin levels then men. It's been shown that some women, in studies, have trouble dealing with those levels even while remembering past negative situations. Those women had more problems in relationships, were more anxious and had trouble setting boundaries in their pairings that would lead to resentment and ultimately failure. Men tend to be more simple in dealing with their chemical levels and negative (past) situations had less impact on future oxytocin levels. Probably one of the biggest reasons women tend to end relationship. Relationship 'issues' seem to matter more because they actually have an impact on oxytocin being released and that affects happiness. Ah yes...intangible happiness...


One of the basic factors is in how you treat those you love. That also has an effect of course. I know that if you want a relationship to fail, a sure fire way is for the man to feel unappreciated and for the woman to feel unloved. When you truly love someone (now comes the subjective stuff) you put them on a pedestal and they do the same for you. Their happiness becomes important, maybe more than your own. But you also can't become blind and let them walk over you if they don't have the same philosophy. Communication is so important....or problems will come and never leave.

Sacrifice is part of it, fighting is part of it, fun is part of it. But there is a right and wrong way to do those things, they can't leave bitterness behind or it becomes a cancer. Those things build and reinforce the bonds of love and keep that a coming.

So um....in short....unless people evolve to where they don't enjoy pleasure love as we know it won't be going anywhere. It does tend to keep the species going. Trying to remove the reproductive and social pleasure center would be like trying to evolve to live in space after being formed on the earth. Yes,...it could happen eventually...but more than likely you'll just die trying.
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Flint the Dwarf
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Post by Flint the Dwarf » Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:39 pm

Alright, now to state my opinion (after Misty's long and chemical induced :wink: "rant")...

This will all be based less on biology and more on psychology and philosophy because it's what I'm good at. And it'll be a good warm up for this philosophy paper I'm supposed to write.


Recently, that Dream thread got me thinking about my future as I have thought about several times before. I narrowed it down to two simple factors: being able to write and travel... and to share life with someone I love. But what do I mean when I say someone I can love?

There was, until about a month ago, a girl in my life whom I though I could spend my life with. I was a big poety writer, partly because I could do it well and partly because I had a lot of spare time. So, when the time came, I wrote her a poem expressing my feelings for her. She decided to distance herself from me. Obviously, she thought differently about me and it was a tough process trying to break away from her. She caused me a lot of pain and I probably caused her equal amounts but for different reasons. Now, she's in love with this guy she met over the net (I don't want to get into net relationships again) and I can feel a little happy for her. As for me, I think I've decided to avoid relationships for a while. I'm not the type of person that can be a bachelor for life... I don't know too many people that can.

Now, my belief as to why I "loved" her is that I was looking for someone to confide in. I was looking for someone to share thoughts and feelings with, and to have similar thoughts and feelings returned. She and I thought very similarly and she was very intelligent, something I value highly. We always had a great time together, too. It just seemed right that we should be together. She also wanted to be a journalist, like me. :?

Something else that I may have not put enough thought into at the time was that I had lived single all my life. I'd never had a girlfriend, so obviously, when one came along that seemed mildly interested in me, I didn't want to lose that. I did, very adeptly. Regardless, I've learned from that. I'm not sure it's a good thing anymore, because I'm not likely to try to involve myself with anyone any time soon. Anyway, that's not too important for this.

The human mind is a thing that is always changing and yet is static. Ideals, desires, aspirations, even talents come and go; change and evolve; appear and disappear. But if there is one thing that doesn't change, it's the idea of companionship.

To step away from the biology of love, I'll define it here...

Love: A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.

Obviously, that definition is not entirely accurate and leaves a lot for interpretation. But it suits my purpose.

We are told that we are unique. We're told that life's a bitch. We know that life is often lonely. Loneliness is one of the most potently horribly and depressing feelings humans can experience. Even with others around us (loved ones, family members, friends, peers), we can be lonely if there's not one person for us to love (as in man-woman love). When loneliness takes over a mind, philosophical questions come to mind. We question identity and esixtence, two of the most dangerous questions and essentially meaningless.

The question of identity is an interesting one for love to invoke. Why should our identity be based on something extrinsic? The answer is that love often involves a refocus of values or a restructuring of character. Suddenly, some things don't matter nearly as much as they used to. It could drive someone into depression or inspiration. But the question of existence is even more interesting.

Existential angst often results from being denied love. We wonder what our purpose is. Why are we here if only to suffer the pangs of love? We lose a sense of the other things in life that are so important; friends, family, education, fulfillment of values, career.

"Love" is a powerful emotion, I won't argue that. But it's only powerful because it often overrides logic. :?

I also do know about oxytocin and do accept that chemicals are the prime component of "love." But I wanted to express my slightly different views.
Kusoyaro: We don't need a leader. We need to SHUT UP. Make what you want to make, don't make you what you don't want to make. If neither of those applies to you, then you need to SHUT UP MORE.

motemote
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Post by motemote » Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:42 pm

So, basically, from what I can intrepret from posts.... Misty is a lesbian?

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