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kthulhu
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Re: hehehe

Post by kthulhu » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:11 am

inanna wrote:hmmm... ya know WW2 is what pulled america out of the great depression. Actually during wartime the economy usually booms. Production is increased cuz suddenly there is a need for war planes and bombs. Employement is increased because somebody has to make those suckers. yada yada yada. The worker has an increase in salary which equals an in increase in spending, spilling more money into the economy. It is interesting that although the econmy benefited from us dropping bombs on Iraqi civilians, it didn't pull us out of this hump. Technically speaking it should have down much more than that.
My guess as to why it didn't:

Before Pearl Harbor and WWII, the US actually had a tiny military, with rather outdated equipment, and not a whole lot of that even. During wargames in the South, when we prepared to enter the fray, pickup trucks were designated as tanks, for instance, and machine guns were just the standard issue bolt-action Springfield (circa 1903) rifles with pie tins attached. Not a great force.

However, since we were entering war, military production ramped up, as you mentioned. We needed planes, tanks, jeeps, hundreds of thousands of the semi-automatic Garand rifles, and tons of other support gear. The government and military went on a buying bonanza for goods, and they needed a lot of them because of the two front war, and because there is no such thing as a cruise missile or precision targetting, so lots planes and bombs are needed. WWII, besides helping to pull the US out of the Depression, also marked the beginning of our massive military and the march to the military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned about.

Anyhow, contrast the "filling the pantry" state of the military in WWII to now. The pantry isn't just full, it's overflowing. We have plenty of rifles to go around, and billions of rounds of ammunition for them. We play war games with modified real equipment. We have self-propelled missiles that can hit our big targets for us, instead of requiring a piloted bomber to do a run and waste explosives and possibly a whole plane.

Essentially, we have little need at this time to crank out military goods on a WWII level again, meaning no massive military spending that could jumpstart the economy.
inanna wrote:However, such a statement also shows just how stupid we were to go at this without UN approoval. Yes, oil is a world market. World Market. Which means that the UN should have had a say in such a war because it directly effects other countries economies. Silly US, just to arrogant and ego-centric to understand the word NO.
The UN can huff and puff and say "No" all it wants, but until it gets any REAL power, besides that of constant declarations and interfering, ineffectual "peacekeeping" missions, it won't tell the US, or ANYBODY, what to do. None of the other countries are willing or able to stand up to the US, because to do so hurts them.

Does it do us any good to go cowboy around the world? Of course not. But to suggest that the UN has some magic power, or needs to be respected is, sadly, rather laughable in my opinion. It's up to our President to play nice, and he's not going the best job at it (which sucks).
inanna wrote:However, when I heard Blair I was like damn now that is how a politician is suppose to sound. Oh well, that is what you get for believing forged intelligence... Ah a slice of Americana.
Blair, in my opinion, won't be re-elected. This Iraq war (and his draconian firearms legislation, among other things), will probably guarantee someone else to be in his seat. Granted, I'm not the most up to date on British politics, but that's my guess.
I'm out...

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madmallard
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Re: hehehe

Post by madmallard » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:23 am

inanna wrote:
five, the point of Iraq was to get the regime out of power, not to kill Saddam. If we wanted saddam as our primary target, rather than liberating the country and finding weapons, don't you think some highly trained army team or marine team operating stealthy would have had much more sucess in finding and killing/capturing one man?
Sadly enough, we tried that once.. and failed... spendidly. Don't try and convince me that killing saddam wasn't the primary objective. From day one we were squealing about the bunker buster through Saddam's roof not our hopes and dreams for a liberated iraq. The whole concept of liberation existed for the sole purpose of making a very ugly war look pretty. I little spit and shine if you will.
you're free to believe whatever you want, thats up to you. If killing saddam was the primary objective, Syria would be flat by now. It was definetly an important tactical plan, and we did want to get him, but if it was the prime objective, most of the rest of the stuff america and joint forces are doing now would have been pointless. . . .

BUt thats not even the point,; even if saddam was primary, and we GOT him, the Baath party is who runs the country for/with him. By not taking them out too, they would've doctored up someone else to be a powerful figurehead. Maybe even saddam's kids, as unstable as they are.
As for the economy: it sucks. That is something no one is debating. We can sit around and talk about whether it is getting better or worse but the fact remains that it sucks. And I was so ready to try out all the wondefull knowledge I gained from listening to Dave Ramsey for an hour each day for a whole semester in economics class.... So much for mutual funds... so much for being a millionaire by the age 80 somethin another :cry:
hmmm... ya know WW2 is what pulled america out of the great depression. Actually during wartime the economy usually booms. Production is increased cuz suddenly there is a need for war planes and bombs. Employement is increased because somebody has to make those suckers. yada yada yada. The worker has an increase in salary which equals an in increase in spending, spilling more money into the economy. It is interesting that although the econmy benefited from us dropping bombs on Iraqi civilians, it didn't pull us out of this hump. Technically speaking it should have down much more than that.
Why? Iraq was a swift war we were prepared, armed, and supplied for.

WW2 was a long, drawn out, and mostly unprepared for war.

Comparing the two isn't appropriate or realistic.

as far as the millionare bit, you could always go back to school and get more nahwlej. ;p

six, to anyone whos says it was about oil, they are partly right. However oil is on the -world- market. And to say that america went in to get big rich american corporate oil companies more oil is stupid. Oil reserves have to be protected for the world market, and the iraqi regime was too closely tied to it to be trusted.
A very good point! I don't completely buy into the whole oil thing either. However, such a statement also shows just how stupid we were to go at this without UN approoval. Yes, oil is a world market. World Market. Which means that the UN should have had a say in such a war because it directly effects other countries economies. Silly US, just to arrogant and ego-centric to understand the word NO.

Your welcome Bishounen Stalker. It was my pleasure.[/quote]

I don't trust the corrupt UN who assings IRAQ to or SYRIA or CHINA to a human rights commitee to have AMERICA'S best interests in mind concerning world economic issues. The UN is a forum, not a government.

ALso, why didn't the UN want to go in? Because France was throwing their weight around on the security commitee. . .why? we can only speculate, but i find it funny that France who had primary oil contracts with Iraq was also trying to prevent war with them. We wont even get into the fact of find theirs and russia's weapons in iraq, and in new, working condition less that a year old.

and its time for a reality check. The world relies on America's economy. If it weakens, it hurts alot more countries than if just the Canadian market, or the Nikkei drops. We better take damn good care of america if we want to give the rest of the world a firm, stable platform like we did in the 80's for japan and germany to prosper so much.
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madmallard
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Re: hehehe

Post by madmallard » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:25 am

kthulhu wrote:
My guess as to why it didn't:
monkey. .. ya beat me to it. . . .;p
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kthulhu
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Post by kthulhu » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:25 am

UNF!

Kitty beats hamster!
I'm out...

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madmallard
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Post by madmallard » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:27 am

the Black Monarch wrote:Sixstop, I'm very glad that you're picking up where I left off, although I wish you'd jumped in sooner :)
sorry. hadn't touched the boards since i got back from Jacon. Was surprised to see this thread still kicking and the direction it went. .
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inanna
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Post by inanna » Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:19 am

you're free to believe whatever you want, thats up to you. If killing saddam was the primary objective, Syria would be flat by now. It was definetly an important tactical plan, and we did want to get him, but if it was the prime objective, most of the rest of the stuff america and joint forces are doing now would have been pointless. . . .
Now we can't go blowing up syria just cuz they are sharing a bunk with lil ole Saddam. That just wouldn't be diplomatic. :wink:
Sorta sticking a gun in one's mouth and pulling the trigger. Yes even the US has its limits. I think...
Why? Iraq was a swift war we were prepared, armed, and supplied for.

WW2 was a long, drawn out, and mostly unprepared for war.

Comparing the two isn't appropriate or realistic.
Ah yes... dug myself into a corner with that one eh. Oh well kthulhu
you explained it brillliantly. Although I'm pretty sure that my History teacher said it was like law or something I'm beginnig to think it doesn't apply so much in this day and age. I think this war (wars) is actually writing a new chapter in how we think about modern warfare. I was reading 1984 when all this was happenning and how Orwell described the low casuality rates kinda got me parnoid. Of course that was on our side... Does anybody know the casuality rate of Iraq? *Shrugs*
Does it do us any good to go cowboy around the world? Of course not. But to suggest that the UN has some magic power, or needs to be respected is, sadly, rather laughable in my opinion. It's up to our President to play nice, and he's not going the best job at it (which sucks).
Sigh, I know, I know. The UN is a pansy ass organization that is a tad bit outdated. However, considering that it is used as a pulpit to voice many nations opinions I don't think that it should be completely disregarded. I just wish Bush would be a little more considerate...
as far as the millionare bit, you could always go back to school and get more nahwlej. ;p
DUDE! You haven't been graced with the supreme high knowledge of Dave Ramsey!?! He has this whole Savings plan that guarantees that you be a millionaire by the time you retire.... of course you have to invest in mutual funds that have interest rates of like 12%... tad bit unrealistic. As for school.... no way I'd willing walk back into that hell. YOU HEAR MR. MUNN! I'm never Coming Back! Ever! You can take your BIBLE Thumpin ways and SHove IT!! I"m gonna Drink until I pass out and you Won't Be there to ship me back home in the Morning You little bastard. I'm Free. I'm Free. Muhhahahahaha!!!! (cough)
In conclusion christian schools are bad...
and its time for a reality check. The world relies on America's economy. If it weakens, it hurts alot more countries than if just the Canadian market, or the Nikkei drops. We better take damn good care of america if we want to give the rest of the world a firm, stable platform like we did in the 80's for japan and germany to prosper so much.
Really....
that's kinda sad. I mean the last thing America's economy is is self sufficient. All it'll take is a few countries pulling the rug from underneath our feet and bam. The whole world topples.

Yawns I'm tired....

Sometimes the only sane response to an insane world is insanity.

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inanna
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Post by inanna » Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:24 am

dug myself into a corner
*giggles insanely*

Where the hell did that come from....... is that right :?:

Grrr.... I'm tired

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the Black Monarch
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Post by the Black Monarch » Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:03 am

I, for one, firmly support the existence of the United Nations. They were the ones who made the resolutions that gave us something of an excuse to go into Iraq and see what Saddam was hiding under his mattress. We don't need the UN's approval to enforce their own resolutions, we just need them to pass the resolutions in the first place. If they want to bitch at us for enforcing their decisions... well, let them try to stop us :)
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kthulhu
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Post by kthulhu » Thu Jun 12, 2003 5:23 pm

the Black Monarch wrote:If they want to bitch at us for enforcing their decisions... well, let them try to stop us :)
Kofi Annon: "We have a billion reams of declarations! Drop them from the black helicopters and papercut the Americans to hell!"

US Soldiers: "The missiles and bullets, they do nothing!"

The President: "I'll be in my secret Area 51 security bunker during this crisis. I have also pre-bandaged my hands against this paper UN menace. Oh yeah, the shadow government's in charge now!"

John Ashcroft: "Sweet Jesus God, there is pornography among these declarations! I mean, look at these b's and c's! They sure do look obscene!"

Vice Prez Dick Cheney: "I wipe my ass with you, global disarmament and oppression conspiracy ! I wipe my ass with you, human rights declaration! I wipe my ass with you, `Goodwill declaration to not remotely deactivate Vice Prez Cheney's pacemaker'! Strange, the old girl's stop bea-"

I fear the UN :shock: .
I'm out...

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Post by BishounenStalker » Thu Jun 12, 2003 5:39 pm

the Black Monarch wrote:I, for one, firmly support the existence of the United Nations. They were the ones who made the resolutions that gave us something of an excuse to go into Iraq and see what Saddam was hiding under his mattress. We don't need the UN's approval to enforce their own resolutions, we just need them to pass the resolutions in the first place. If they want to bitch at us for enforcing their decisions... well, let them try to stop us :)
Actually, the UN is the biggest joke on a few hundred feet IMO. I agree with Kthulhu, they can pass all the resolutions they want, but they won't get anywhere without the power to enforce them by themselves. The peacekeeping missions they keep sending off to the Balkans only create more discord there. And considering we haven't found much under Sadam's mattress except a couple of so-called labs whose ability to make weapons-grade biological material is indeed questionable, the UN itself is going to have a lot to answer for.

And Sixstop and Kthulhu are right, this Iraq skirmish (I wouldn't go so far as to call it a war) couldn't do too much to help the economy because we didn't need to put much work into it. We had most of the vehicles and supplies we needed, so there wasn't as much preparation required. I still agree our economy sucks, though. Not as much as it did under Dubya, Sr., but we're still in a recession here. I think part of the reason for the numerous tax cuts was to make up for Bush Sr., infamous "Read my lips, no new taxes" fiasco.

What has Bush on my no-vote list really is his turning the so-called "War on Terror" into an excuse to start butting his nose where it doesn't belong. Iraq had been successfully contained for 13 years. If a few whispered rumors were enough to send him trotting off to battle, then I think he's a little too trigger-happy of a President for my taste (either that or our intelligence officers were stretching the truth, in which case the problem is beyond the scope of the Oval Office). Until we can find some substantial evidence to support the main reason we believe we were going into Iraq (WMDs).

Although to Bush's credit, I WIL vote for him over Al Sharpton any day of the week.
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