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EarthCurrent
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Post by EarthCurrent » Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:34 am

the Black Monarch wrote:(a) fogetting that Congress has to get 2/3 support in each house before the prez even gets the opportunity to sign it,
:?
A bill only need recieve a simple majority in both Houses of Congress before it is sent to the President for consideration. A 2/3 majority is needed in both Houses in order to overide a Presidential veto.

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inanna
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two cents... ain't worth shit

Post by inanna » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:40 am

hmmm.. I just thought I'd spew some thoughts before I head off to bed. I came across many posts in this thread praising Bush for getting rid of Saddam and ultimatley making the world a better place. I would just like to remind everyone that SADDAM ISN'T DEAD, and while we are on the topic neither is Bin Laden.... but it's alright. I forgive you. With the media today, I can't really blame anyone for being confused. Also, I find it kind of odd that all of a sudden the US is all excited about making the world a better place. Frankly, we have never been big on human rights. When reports started coming out of the middle east about the horrific treatment of women, genocide, and the denial of the basic rights of man (free speach, etc), did we act? Hell no, we sat back with our newspapers in one hand and our starbuck's mocha capuchino in the other estimating the rise in oil prices. And if humanitarian ideals are the new trend then why aren't we invading other countries as well. The fact that we invaded Iraq in the first place is incredibly suspicous. No one can deny Saddam had become a bit of a superstar in America, thanks to propoganda and desperate political finger-pionting. Their rational makes sense: take out the evil dictator we have glorified for the past decade and no one will question our motives. As for their motives.... that they did for the oil is believable but kinda half assed. As for the weapons of mass destruction, please, if our politicians really believed their were wmds in a Iraq we have a buttload of idiots walking around DC. Iraq was contained. And the few items that we did find in Iraq isn't anything you wouldn't find laying around the basement of the pentagon. There had to be an alterior motive..... or maybe not. Maybe this country really is run by idiots.
blah


Sometimes the only sane response to an insane world is insanity.

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the Black Monarch
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Post by the Black Monarch » Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:58 am

EarthCurrent wrote:A bill only need recieve a simple majority in both Houses of Congress before it is sent to the President for consideration. A 2/3 majority is needed in both Houses in order to overide a Presidential veto.
Damn, either my history books were a bit fucked, or my memory is deteriorating.

This has not been a good week for me to be trusting what I've read from supposedly authoritative sources. First the Centrino, now this.

To protect myself from this sort of stuff in the future, I'm going to become even more skeptical and paranoid. At this rate, I'll be like Burt from the Tremors trilogy by the time I'm 25.
Ask me about my secret stash of videos that can't be found anywhere anymore.

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BishounenStalker
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Post by BishounenStalker » Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:27 am

EarthCurrent wrote:
the Black Monarch wrote:(a) fogetting that Congress has to get 2/3 support in each house before the prez even gets the opportunity to sign it,
:?
A bill only need recieve a simple majority in both Houses of Congress before it is sent to the President for consideration. A 2/3 majority is needed in both Houses in order to overide a Presidential veto.
Darn, you beat me to it, EC :D

As for me firing personal insults at Black Monarch, he can consider it payback for telling everyone else they don't what they're talking about if they don't like Evangelion or if they like Asuka more than Rei (even when the conversation wasn't even ABOUT Eva).

And yes, his memory probably IS deteriorating if he can't remember how a bill becomes law. Might also explain why he parrots his statements every other post, too (with absolutely no evidence to support them). He should do himself a favor and either consult some real history texts, or if he's too lazy to do that, at least go back and watch Schoolhouse Rock. He absolutely deserves the description "pathetically ignorant." More than a few people here would agree.

I respect his opinion, just not the garbage he's spewing and disguising as fact.

And yes, I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to the Supreme Court, buster. It's called having older and younger siblings with political science BAs. And you can go back to listening to your own biased (and misinformed, by the looks of it) media.

And as for Rei, I believe in another thread you said "I wish I could shamelessly plug Rei... hehe... er... *runs away*" I suppose you meant "plug" her in the most loving way possible. Suuuuuuuuure.
-- Rachel the Demon, Resident Quoter of Obscure Nostalgia
"Great. He can pick his teeth when he's done with us!" - Marina, Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas
Current AMV: Somewhere On This Night

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BishounenStalker
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Re: two cents... ain't worth shit

Post by BishounenStalker » Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:35 am

inanna wrote:hmmm.. I just thought I'd spew some thoughts before I head off to bed. I came across many posts in this thread praising Bush for getting rid of Saddam and ultimatley making the world a better place. I would just like to remind everyone that SADDAM ISN'T DEAD, and while we are on the topic neither is Bin Laden.... but it's alright. I forgive you. With the media today, I can't really blame anyone for being confused. Also, I find it kind of odd that all of a sudden the US is all excited about making the world a better place. Frankly, we have never been big on human rights. When reports started coming out of the middle east about the horrific treatment of women, genocide, and the denial of the basic rights of man (free speach, etc), did we act? Hell no, we sat back with our newspapers in one hand and our starbuck's mocha capuchino in the other estimating the rise in oil prices. And if humanitarian ideals are the new trend then why aren't we invading other countries as well. The fact that we invaded Iraq in the first place is incredibly suspicous. No one can deny Saddam had become a bit of a superstar in America, thanks to propoganda and desperate political finger-pionting. Their rational makes sense: take out the evil dictator we have glorified for the past decade and no one will question our motives. As for their motives.... that they did for the oil is believable but kinda half assed. As for the weapons of mass destruction, please, if our politicians really believed their were wmds in a Iraq we have a buttload of idiots walking around DC. Iraq was contained. And the few items that we did find in Iraq isn't anything you wouldn't find laying around the basement of the pentagon. There had to be an alterior motive..... or maybe not. Maybe this country really is run by idiots.
blah


Sometimes the only sane response to an insane world is insanity.
THANK YOU!

We know Saddam had SOME chemical weaponry because he gassed the Kurds with it (and because we gave it to him). But how much of that is left and if he has the means to make more and has actually produced more are what's in question.

From what I've been reading, this sounds like LBJ and the Tonkin Resolution all over again. Stretch the truth, get the people's support, go into Iraq, and hope to God no one finds out the REAL reason we're over there. It's like a bad soap opera fake-pregnancy plot. And now we're running into the eventual snag of what happens after nine months and no baby shows up. Although Tony Blair's feeling more of the pressure than Dubya is. Something tells me if no WMDs are found, Blair won't be Prime Minister much longer.

And as for our backwards attitude towards human rights, three words: Iran Contra Scandal
-- Rachel the Demon, Resident Quoter of Obscure Nostalgia
"Great. He can pick his teeth when he's done with us!" - Marina, Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas
Current AMV: Somewhere On This Night

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madmallard
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Post by madmallard » Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:21 pm

first of all, the votes in the election were counted frequently by multiple parties after the fact and during the fact, including private ones and including USA Today, an arguably liberal newspaper. (even after the supreme court ruled that the laws stand and shouldn't be changed)

Second, a tax cut doesn't give money away. It gives money back that was already yours to begin with. Any idea that the rich just get free money is grossly uneducated. This tax cut that immediately credits those with kids is giving the parent back the money they've already paid to the US government.

Third, interest rates are still going down, despite tax cuts.

Fourth, the war on Iraq cost less than 1% of the total yearly value of the US economy. The government isnt hurting to pay off this war and those who fought it.

five, the point of Iraq was to get the regime out of power, not to kill Saddam. If we wanted saddam as our primary target, rather than liberating the country and finding weapons, don't you think some highly trained army team or marine team operating stealthy would have had much more sucess in finding and killing/capturing one man? Besides, Saddam wasn't the only figurehead in the regim of the Baath socialist party, despite the fact his is the only name that CNN and MSNBC ran on the news every day. there were 12 key figures we were looking to 'get' first, and then that expanded to the deck of cards the troops got.

six, to anyone whos says it was about oil, they are partly right. However oil is on the -world- market. And to say that america went in to get big rich american corporate oil companies more oil is stupid. Oil reserves have to be protected for the world market, and the iraqi regime was too closely tied to it to be trusted.

After all, if the oil from iraq dissappears that not only america, but french, germany, russia, and a dozen other euro countries bought from, where are they going to get the oil they need? The answer is "Anywhere they possibly can at any price." That is what is truly frightening about the worlds dependancy on fossil fuel.

Now, who would you want in charge of that natural resource, an extremist millitant minority faction with a dictator leadership who would use that resource as a politcal, social, and economic lever, even at the detriment of his own country's populace, or to buy illegal weapons?

lastly, we already found biological weapons he said he didn't have. We found a mobile weapons lab that couldn't be anything other than a station to develop, carry and deliver biological weapons. We didn't go into Iraq because we counldn't find anything, we went into iraq because the regime didn't come forward with the fact that they had them and prove to us that they destroyed them, which was the original UN terms 10 years agoe in rez 687 and 678.
North Korea won't launch any nukes at us unless we push them to do it
Damn straight. They're smart enough to sell the nukes on the black market to terrorists, who would launch the weapons from within the borders of some peaceful, unassuming country and all hell would break loose.
This is an important possibility to consider, because terrorist extremists aren't the same as dictators. Dictators know they must hang on to power so they probably wouldn't use it, but extremist terrorist have nothing to hold on to, so they have nothing to loose by unleashing the nastiest weapon they can on as many people they see (suicide bombing.)

The russian government has begun selling tourist flights to the stratosphere in Airbats to make money.

North Korea is hurting for money even more than the russian government. If they have any potential to make enough money to hold onto power, they will use it.

As an unemployed person i am living proof of what she is talking bout.
I'm unemployed too. But I don't blame Dubya for it.
I have to agree, since when is it anyones responsibility but your own to keep yourself employed?
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BishounenStalker
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Post by BishounenStalker » Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:56 pm

Some good points there. But what puzzles me is that the so-called labs that were found have been determined incapable of producing weapons-grade biological material (so sayeth CNN). If two paltry labs are all the investigation can turn up, that's pretty sad. It's going to take a lot more than that to justify going over there when Iraq was actually contained for about 13 years since stepped in.

And I'd still say our economy is on the downside. Unemployment's up, national debt is up, and the stock market's doing pretty horrible. Interest rates are soon to follow. Not all of it is Dubya's fault, but a good chunk of it is since he's seen fit to do absolutely nothing to solve the corporate crook problem (except give us tax cuts so he'd look busy). Heck, I'm surprised the Bitch of Housewares has actually been indicted. But then again, the only reason Dubya himself wasn't busted for insider trading over the Harken Energy mess was because his old man was President at the time.
-- Rachel the Demon, Resident Quoter of Obscure Nostalgia
"Great. He can pick his teeth when he's done with us!" - Marina, Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas
Current AMV: Somewhere On This Night

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madmallard
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Post by madmallard » Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:44 pm

They're talking about the 'pesticide' labs that could 'conceivably' produce that material last time I heard. I'll check again later


Stock market has been steadily gaining for almost a month now. Not hugely but clawing its way back. Interest rates are looking to be cut AGAIN. Not raised.

And the national debt exists because the US government is expected to spend money. If it didn't collect so much in taxes, then there would be a need to spend it all, hence why witholding should have died 30 years ago. More efficient government would be good, Less government would be better.

Oh and corporate crook problems ARE being resolved without the help of bush. why do you think the stock market plumetted as much as it did right before clinton's last year? Because true value of these internet companies werefinally corrected. Why did it keep going down? Because more executives were charged. How are those connected?

Consumer confidence. The government doesnt need to do anything about crooked businessmen other than charge them with their criminal acts. The Market system and the public will decide from there, and boy have they been deciding fro 5 years now. When the corporations clean up their act and prove to investors and customers they can be trusted, then they will spend the money again. -That- is how it is corrected.
Main Events Director Anime Weekend Atlanta, Kawaii-kon

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inanna
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hehehe

Post by inanna » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:00 pm

five, the point of Iraq was to get the regime out of power, not to kill Saddam. If we wanted saddam as our primary target, rather than liberating the country and finding weapons, don't you think some highly trained army team or marine team operating stealthy would have had much more sucess in finding and killing/capturing one man?
Sadly enough, we tried that once.. and failed... spendidly. Don't try and convince me that killing saddam wasn't the primary objective. From day one we were squealing about the bunker buster through Saddam's roof not our hopes and dreams for a liberated iraq. The whole concept of liberation existed for the sole purpose of making a very ugly war look pretty. I little spit and shine if you will.

As for the economy: it sucks. That is something no one is debating. We can sit around and talk about whether it is getting better or worse but the fact remains that it sucks. And I was so ready to try out all the wondefull knowledge I gained from listening to Dave Ramsey for an hour each day for a whole semester in economics class.... So much for mutual funds... so much for being a millionaire by the age 80 somethin another :cry:
hmmm... ya know WW2 is what pulled america out of the great depression. Actually during wartime the economy usually booms. Production is increased cuz suddenly there is a need for war planes and bombs. Employement is increased because somebody has to make those suckers. yada yada yada. The worker has an increase in salary which equals an in increase in spending, spilling more money into the economy. It is interesting that although the econmy benefited from us dropping bombs on Iraqi civilians, it didn't pull us out of this hump. Technically speaking it should have down much more than that.
six, to anyone whos says it was about oil, they are partly right. However oil is on the -world- market. And to say that america went in to get big rich american corporate oil companies more oil is stupid. Oil reserves have to be protected for the world market, and the iraqi regime was too closely tied to it to be trusted.
A very good point! I don't completely buy into the whole oil thing either. However, such a statement also shows just how stupid we were to go at this without UN approoval. Yes, oil is a world market. World Market. Which means that the UN should have had a say in such a war because it directly effects other countries economies. Silly US, just to arrogant and ego-centric to understand the word NO.

Your welcome Bishounen Stalker. It was my pleasure.
Although Tony Blair's feeling more of the pressure than Dubya is. Something tells me if no WMDs are found, Blair won't be Prime Minister much longer.
You know I saw him persuading the parliment to join and the war on CNN or something and I swear to god I got all starry eyed watching him. Now I have never been one to poke fun at Bush's speeches, I'm from the South so I find Bush's dialect to be completely understandable.. even comforting at times. :? However, when I heard Blair I was like damn now that is how a politician is suppose to sound. Oh well, that is what you get for believing forged intelligence... Ah a slice of Americana.

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the Black Monarch
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Post by the Black Monarch » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:32 pm

BishounenStalker wrote: As for me firing personal insults at Black Monarch, he can consider it payback for telling everyone else they don't what they're talking about if they don't like Evangelion or if they like Asuka more than Rei (even when the conversation wasn't even ABOUT Eva).

And as for Rei, I believe in another thread you said "I wish I could shamelessly plug Rei... hehe... er... *runs away*" I suppose you meant "plug" her in the most loving way possible. Suuuuuuuuure.
I hate to bust your bubble, but those were both jokes. It was, or should have been, pretty obvious to everyone except you. You'd have to be either very stupid or very desperate for mud to think that I meant stuff like "well you like DBZ, so you're automatically wrong about everything."

Sixstop, I'm very glad that you're picking up where I left off, although I wish you'd jumped in sooner :)
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