AMVs as fair use

Epical Zamora · Post by **Epical Zamora** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:40 pm

The legality of AMVs and other things will eternally be up for debate. However, I find it doubtful that AMVs will ever be seen in even a relatively prominent court case, though I may be be proven wrong soon.

Are AMVs fair use? If they're not, should they be allowed on a fan-made advertisement interest? What about parodies, should they be counted separate from other AMVs? If they are fair use, how far does the fair use idea go?

If this sort of thing ever makes it as far as the Supreme Court, the decision will probably change later on. The idea is always evolving.

quadir · Post by **quadir** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:57 pm

Larry Lessig did a talk at TED in march (only now posted online) on remix culture, in it he showed a Vampire Hunter D amv to the crowd along with other remix pieces.
http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/187

G_Q also pointed out that NPR mentioned amvs as well more recently in august.
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/v ... hp?t=82096

Epical Zamora, I think saying it will forever be in debate is a bit misleading.
a) If a court case does happen on a similar remix culture (say, vidding) then they will set a presedent that will likely apply to AMVs
b) the eff seems to be arguing that the non-commercial and transformative properties of the work as a whole make it fair use
c) You can avoid the gray area of using the audio verbatim by using music that allows you to use it this way noncommercially, like magnatunes, jonathan coulton, or more recent high profile artists
d) There is precedent for an anime distributor to approach several editors and make bonus material drawing upon anime, which without a doupt is legal.

I think it unlikely we will ever have a meaningful dialog with Japanese rights holders to anime unless they themselves decide to allow remixing and not as a result of any conversation we have with them.

North American Anime distributors do have a dialog with the Japanese rights holders and also have some degree of freedom with the works. Is the next step to try to establish a dialog with them? Some of them have been posting the first episode of their series online as a "sample" for people considering buying the DVDs. Can we present AMVs as a form of fan-device that will renew interest with an older series?

If we do try to strike up such a discussion, I think it best nobody mention fansubs.
Also, what would be the best way to strike up such a dialog, individually contacting them for permission? As an advocacy group representing editors? There's a lot of options here, do we gain influence together or do we merely look more commercial in their eyes and more of a threat?

YouTube · Post by **Kionon** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:31 pm

Why not become associated with a similar lobby? One that promotes the interpretation that AMVs contitute fair use?

If this will ever be resolved, the truth is that all of remix culture must together and declare what we think our rights are. That's the vidders, and the AMV editors, and the non-commercial DJs, etc. If we stand together, as a group of millions, we stand a chance of actually passing legislation that protects us in our home countries.

Serv0 · Post by **Serv0** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:54 pm

wikipedia on AMVs wrote:An adage exists in the AMV community that states "the industry knows, but they don't know", meaning that U.S. vendors are aware AMVs exist but officially cannot acknowledge them, lest they be required to take potentially-expensive legal action.

JaddziaDax · Post by **JaddziaDax** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:56 pm

now if that were true the RIAA wouldn't bother with suing all those p2p peoples

Epical Zamora · Post by **Epical Zamora** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:15 pm

quadir wrote:North American Anime distributors do have a dialog with the Japanese rights holders and also have some degree of freedom with the works. Is the next step to try to establish a dialog with them? Some of them have been posting the first episode of their series online as a "sample" for people considering buying the DVDs. Can we present AMVs as a form of fan-device that will renew interest with an older series?

If we do try to strike up such a discussion, I think it best nobody mention fansubs.
Also, what would be the best way to strike up such a dialog, individually contacting them for permission? As an advocacy group representing editors? There's a lot of options here, do we gain influence together or do we merely look more commercial in their eyes and more of a threat?

It's a hard thing to debate... when it comes to legality, there is no doubt that they would have the upper hand. And in relation the the quote servo posted, would it really be wise to present our necks to them? It would probably be better to keep to ourselves and let them initiate dialog if they do so desire.

Oh, and what I meant by the eternal debate statement, was that even if a precedent is made, another lawsuit could present a different side of the issue, and the decision could be overturned. With controversies like this where both sides have strong arguments, it's a common occurrence.

BasharOfTheAges · Post by **BasharOfTheAges** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:30 pm

Epical Zamora wrote:Oh, and what I meant by the eternal debate statement, was that even if a precedent is made, another lawsuit could present a different side of the issue, and the decision could be overturned. With controversies like this where both sides have strong arguments, it's a common occurrence.

And to take that further - Big business knows the cost of hiring competent lawyers is far beyond what most people can afford - with the RIAA's reputation for suing children and the elderly without remorse of any kind, it's not too hard to think they'd bring cases against people just to ruin them (especially if it's something related to keeping their "above the law" status intact). Their lawyers are on retainer.

quadir · Post by **quadir** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:50 pm

Kionon wrote:If this will ever be resolved, the truth is that all of remix culture must together and declare what we think our rights are.

This sounds really good. What are the current groups set up for this? Is eff such a group?

@servo: Except for the Noir DVD Extra amvs. oops. I talked about them in my post, they HAVE aknowledged us. It might be time to talk to them.

@JaddziaDax: If you're following the RIAA court cases, except for 1 case that is not even up for appeal yet (the 220,000 one), the RIAA is getting their ass kicked in court.

@Epical Zamora: The issue isn't about showing our necks to them. We've done that already. You may not know, but a label has gone after the org. NA TV right holders are looking people up (how long till anime producers follow suit?). You want to pick your ground, and pick your battle. Do this on our terms. Don't let it become a lone amver who gets sued, looses then the floodgates open.

@BasharOfTheAges: This is where Kionon's point makes the most sense. Advocacy groups help. How much, we'd have to see?

The question is are we mature enough to come together in such a way, to support each other and to look at this realistically.

YouTube · Post by **Kionon** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:09 am

quadir wrote:
Kionon wrote:If this will ever be resolved, the truth is that all of remix culture must together and declare what we think our rights are.
This sounds really good. What are the current groups set up for this? Is eff such a group?

I don't know. I'll do some more research. My point directly speaks to Bashar's point.

The RIAA is allowed to do whatever they want because they have the money to lobby, and lobby hard. Through congress, and through the courts. In order to meet them, we will need the same. We would need to start a non-profit political action committee, solicit donations, and work on getting some lawyers. Lawyers in the community that could subsidize their services and believe in the cause would be the most affordable at first, but with membership growth, we could see hiring our own team, or an entire law firm.

Something along the lines of The International Institute on Transformitive Works would make a nice title.

quadir · Post by **quadir** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:56 am

/. writeup FTW

slashdot wrote:Gigi Sohn, President of Public Knowledge, presented a six-step program for reforming outdated US copyright laws in a speech at the New Media conference at Boston University. Sohn expressed no patience with the 'disconnect between the law and the technology' of media production and distribution. He puts Fair Use at the top of the list for changes that will help return balance to copyright laws that have limited innovation, scholarship, creativity, and free speech. In addition to the four-part legal test for fair use currently on the books, Sohn recommends that Congress add incidental, transformative, and non-commercial personal uses to the list of fair uses enumerated in copyright law, and in addition expressly provide that making a digital copy for the purpose of indexing searches is not an infringement. Beyond Fair Use reform, Sohn advocates punishing copyright holders who 'knowingly or recklessly' send out false takedown notices, protecting the manufacturer of a technology from liability for the infringing activity of others if the technology has substantial non-infringing uses, promoting fair and accessible licensing of copyrighted works, limiting damages for the use of orphan works, and requiring copyright holders to provide notice of any limitations on users' ability to make fair or lawful uses of their products.

http://www.publicknowledge.org/node/1244