Winnowing

Hitori · Post by **Hitori** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:48 pm

Kai Stromler wrote:rrgh, didn't look hard enough. Thanks for the heads-up.

--K

No problem Super Cool Dude!! 8)

Cybermat · Post by **Cybermat** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:37 pm

Thanks for all the opinions, everyone. It gives me something to think about.

Org Profile · Post by **Vlad G Pohnert** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:35 pm

I just want to add, that it sound all fine to DQ them based on a logo... But what happens if the Anime Companies (or anyone for that) starts to put little logos on the actual DVDs. This is something I figure could happend in the future and then we are all screwed!

Or what if you get the sources from TV before they are even released? Does that mean you can't enter it into a contest even if it has a "bug" in the corner? Better yet, What IF I put one there intentionaly as part of the video? Who makes the decision to cut it and if it is intentional? I If I did it intentionally and it was cut on that bases only, I sure would be upset....

I just feel it's not as black and white issue that everyone writes if off to be. Frankly I'm with Quu, it it's really distracting, chances are the video won't make the cut anyway.

Vlad

Org Profile · Post by **VicBond007** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:43 pm

I'm with VegettoEX on this one. They're distracting, and they just scream "I've got better things to spend my money on that the source for my own work". It'd be like Picasso using fingerpaint. I'm always in heavy debt (I drive American. No further explaination needed) but still, I find ways to shuffle around my spending to make room for good quality sources. Heck, I spent $240 on 12 episodes of an anime that I wasn't even thrilled with, just to make a video for it! Too poor isn't an excuse to bootleg. Well...actually, yeah, it is...but it's not a good one!

The exception would be as Vlad said. If anime companies start watermarking DVDs, then we should be more lenient, because then the only source of clear footage would be the R2 releases...not that that's very different from the current state of the industry ^_^

BishounenStalker · Post by **BishounenStalker** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:57 pm

I totally agree they should be DQed, ESPECIALLY for fansub footage. At least with most fansubs and digisubs I've seen, the fansubber's logo doesn't extend very far above the actual subtitles. If you're going through the trouble of removing subtitles, why not remove the subber's logo while you're at it?

And I agree with VicBond about network logos. It really does scream "I don't give a damn about what I'm doing." And if the creator doesn't care enough about their work to spend the extra bit of money and get good source, why should the audience give a flying frell, either? Instead of using fingerpaint, it's akin to Picasso thinning his oils out to make the paint last longer (which is stupid anyway, because it'll take more paint to achieve the degree of opaqueness you want and thus defeat the purpose, but I digress).

MCWagner · Post by **MCWagner** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:15 am

On the one hand, I find it somewhat depressing that the bar is being raised in this hobby to the point where the base beginner doesn't even get a showing any more. Really, this is a hobby, and someone who dabbles around with it should be able to show off his work at a con without investing a lot of money in it. We're not the Oscars. In the rare case where someone shows an enormous amount of talent when his source isn't all that great (static or logos or subtitles) the work should be able to shine out past the insufficent tools. Disqualifying a work based on some trifling technicality is a rather sorry thing to do. (We'll ignore for the moment the use of hard subtitles when it actually fits with the video theme...like Hairston's Nadia trilogy.)

On the other hand, I think this is a sort of non-issue. Anyone who gets into the hobby for a little while will notice how ugly these station logos and subtitles are, and how much people dislike them, and do their best to avoid them. (Either that, or they're incredibly dense.) I know my first video "End of the World" had subtitles and junk all over the place and it still won a best tech award back at AWA3. Since then, of course, I do my best to avoid that. As far as "rewarding people who buy their footage"....A) that's not really our job, that's the DVD company's job, B) that's not rewarding those who buy DVDs, that's punishing those who don't...not the same thing, and C) the reward in AMVs for buying the DVD is having better, clearer source. So the reward already applies in letting you make better-looking videos, and thus giving you a better chance in the contest. As stated above, the people who have trouble with subtitles or network logos are usually beginners whose entry needs work in other areas more severely. You don't have to disqualify on the basis of a technicality, when disqualifying on the basis of quality would be more honest, and more helpful to the newbie improving.

Finally, although they've been releasing a bunch of great old series on DVD, there are still a lot that haven't been touched and are, at best, only available to the US fan on fansubs. Try hunting down original Harlock without subs, original Cyborg 009, Future Boy Conan, hell, try finding a full set of "Tico and Nanami" ANYWHERE. It's possible, but exceedingly difficult and we can't expect everyone to get lucky.

BishounenStalker · Post by **BishounenStalker** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:35 am

I think you're missing the point a bit. Nobody's saying you can't use fansubs or video captures from network TV if you don't have the funds to buy DVDs. What the new rule is saying is that if you're going to use them, remove the network/fansubber logos because they're ugly and distracting. It's like any kind of art: presentation is EVERYTHING. You wouldn't want to display a drawing in an art gallery with coffee stains from breakfast on it, no matter how good it is. And you wouldn't want to display an AMV at a Con with the CN logo in ther corner for the same reason: it gives the impression that you don't care enough about your work to clean it up and make it look as good as possible.

OmniStrata · Post by **OmniStrata** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:35 am

This will sound goofy coming from someone who edits most of his vids using digisub source [that and when I edit an amv, the domestics aren't out yet...]

I know how to dodge subs VERY damn well and I only have one logo'ed video online... [My 2nd "better" Boys Be Romance vid] Though if you people watch it, I don't think the logo is enough to warrant the fact that the vid isn't THAT n00bish and that I did edit my ass off despite the fact that it's my only linear vid... [no fx, no fades, just cuts]

Kai Stromler · Post by **Kai Stromler** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:59 am

Boys Be... has been out (to 6th volume) on both VHS and R2 DVD since December 2000. (links go to VHS, since not everyone's DVD setup will do R2)

vol 1
vol 2
vol 3
vol 4
vol 5
vol 6

I'm not gacking you or anything, just pointing out that there's no real excuse for bugged Boys Be videos. I'm guilty too.

It all comes down to the level of effort you want to put into your final project: if the plan is to make the video earth-shattering from the start, you'll track down unbugged source and pay whatever you have to for it. If you just do it for a lark and it turns out killer, the video may be good enough to make people not care about the bugs.

Ideally, the idea of using unbugged source should get the same currency in the community that the idea of buying CDs to rip songs from has; perhaps honored more in the breach than in the observance, but current enough so that people know they shouldn't, even if and when they do.

--K

AbsoluteDestiny · Post by **AbsoluteDestiny** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:08 pm

Kai Stromler wrote:Boys Be... has been out (to 6th volume) on both VHS and R2 DVD since December 2000. (links go to VHS, since not everyone's DVD setup will do R2)

Not to mention that the official Indoensian release, which is a Region 0 DVD and has english subtitles has been out since 2001 I think.