We need a leader

[SarahtheBoring]

Hey, my comment was whacked out. I guess it was a little too subtle for ya. Sigh.

"The wording of this was silly because I don't think the AMV 'world' is monolithic/homogenous enough to have one single leader who guides absolutely everyone."

Was that obvious enough for you? Sheez.

[Melanchthon]

I still appreciate, say, this video.

Do you have a working link for that? I couldn't find anything on Google.

I feel curiously unaffected by this topic.

[Beowulf]

I would defend my points but Wagner seems to already have

And Kalium, could you post a list of the various long-form videos? I have never even heard of anything remotely resembling my video, let alone seen another that shares similarities. Something else is out there that tells a 10+ minute narative using multiple songs and anime rearranged to create its own context?

Link me. I'm not being affrontive, I just want to know.

On an affrontive note, and contrary to what seems to be your belief, I am not concerned at all about plugging myself. I'm not trying to make this about me. I'm not sitting here trying to think of up ways to plug my videos or myself. I am a reasonably popular creator on this website, I've been around for a good chunk of time, I think my opinions on all these various issues are valid, and people listen to what I have to say. If this bugs you, I'm sorry. If it bugs you that I am aware of my station on this social heirarchy, sorry. If it bugs you that people listen to my thoughts and not yours, sorry. If it bugs you that my videos are better recieved than yours, sorry. If you think I'm an arrogant elitist for even mentioning any of this publicly, I'm not. It doesn't really have any affect on me because its my reality. I don't need to agrandize myself to a bunch of strangers on the internet, and if you think I'm trying too, you're wrong.

I'm glad I struck a chord with everyone here. We're now on our 7th page of discourse. As Wagner said, this HAS to be better than not discussing it at all. Type on.

[Kalium]

This and this come to mind. It's rarely employed by single editors, for reasons I think you've come to realize.

As for the nature of the long form, I think you're overspecifying. Ten minutes is probably a good threshold, considering that most videos are in the 3-5 minute range with a few as long as seven, but any good video can create its own context, and using multiple anime is nothing special. Using multiple songs is nearly requisite, as there are few of such extended length. So, the defining difference between short and long forms is length, just as the largest difference between a short and a movie is length.

[Flint the Dwarf]

Then what are the old linear vids?

Mostly artifacts and fossils.

[Fluxmeister]

Beo I have to take exception and essentially disagree with you. I dare to challenge you to think critically about the statements you made. While I certainly understand your views I think it's important to understand why someone else may not always share them.

We haven't had a definitive video since Euphoria, and before that, Shameless Rock Video. These are the kinds of things that can appeal to everyone by setting the bar higher and innovating new and creative ways of doing things most of us take for granted.

While these videos are milestones in popularity they didn't make me want to edit any more than I already did. Everyone has their own kinds of trigger videos or other artistic creations that they owe a lot of (unspoken) credit to. To say that these kinds of videos will lead the hobby on seems ridiculous... as though we need some grand new video to survive. Your own video Dead To the World is an example of you wanting to express yourself. If you made it with the intention of outdoing or earning bragging rights, congratulations you wasted a lot of time on something you don't truly believe in. Fortunately I do not believe that is the case. I truly doubt that it was just one video that inspired you to create any of your works. I believe we don't need anything in the way of leadership. I would prefer a community of admiration and respect for everyone's works as opposed to one where people say "oh your video isn't super-popular-video-x so shut up until one of your videos is more popular than it."

...Of course in reality-land it's a bit of both and I am thankful to have a mostly respectful community.

The Top 10 is trash. People have always said that Top 10 sucks (mostly based on teenage anti establishment sentiment I imagine), but its truely goten ridiculous in the last 2 years. Naruto's World? Shounen Bushidou? Naruto's Technique Beat? These are not the kind of groundbreaking videos we had a couple years ago.

Only in your eyes beo do you judge these things. You speak only for yourself. Sure some will agree, but maybe they won't... and you should respect that. For every time you say OMFG these people are retards why do they like this crap... there is someone who says the same about the things you like. Instead of respecting the views or others you are doing the ever so repeated "omg you don't know what real creativity is in relation to X art" ... which occurs over and over with music, movies, anything creative. Does saying the top 10% sucks ever help... at all? This isn't politics, it's not like your opinion that some band sucks will actually affect the fans who like it.

Your blanket judgment on the popular videos of the last few years not being groundbreaking is simply your personal bias. I am sure some people probably find them incredibly inspiring and groundbreaking.

I think now that this community has pretty much caught up with technology, people's ideas are their limiting force as apposed to their software. It definitely seems that way since we all see the same After Effects glow plugins, the same still image masking, the same piano keys, the same effects, the same everything.

... not to be an ass ... so is the solution to slap on less used, less popular filters and act like you're the son of god for delivering us from our mediocrity? People have learned to repeat what works because they are used to it. Yes this can create stale boring repetitive creations... but is it that horrible? Look how creative an anime music video editor is... you combine other people's works together, cut them up, slap some filters and/or effects on... and redeliver the product. Is it any wonder the "remix" community is often frowned upon?

I still stand by my own rule of making what I want see. If I want to find edges and invert on a beat then I won't let the potential complaint that I am not being original keep me from it. If I want to have some ECW clip of a guys head being smashed in with a chair then I will do it. I will even change the scene on a beat, which as we know is the most original concept ever.

We need people more focused on expressing unique ideas, and less people focused on making "correct videos".

What we need is for people to stop trying to tell others what to do.
What we need is for people to stop trying to make videos to meet some retarded set of expectations.
What we need is for people to actually make things they enjoy, not just things to win awards and/or gain popularity.

Meh I say

[BishounenStalker]

Fluxmeister = Best. Smackdown. Ever.

*hands over the internet, complete with collector's box*

[Kai Stromler]

We need people more focused on expressing unique ideas, and less people focused on making "correct videos".

What we need is for people to stop trying to make videos to meet some retarded set of expectations.
What we need is for people to actually make things they enjoy, not just things to win awards and/or gain popularity.

Are these points necessarily opposed?

I was going to write some crap here about how trend, no matter what it's following, is inherently negative, but couldn't find anything that others haven't already posted or didn't sound completely insane.

--K

[Willen]

Sorry about that, but to add some actual feedback on the topic, I agree mostly with Otohiko, Kai, and Paul to a certain degree.

The Top 10 is basically like the Top 10 of the Billboard Charts. Much of it is just current pop-drivel created to satisfy the tastes of the time. Not to say that it is all worthless. In fact I do occasionally like some of the music that makes it up there. But times change and tastes change. A few of the stand-out AMVs will stand the test of time, but just like how DBZ vids were popular a few years ago, Naruto vids will also be replaced by something else newer and fresher.

As for breaking new ground, well, that task is harder and harder to do. At this point, all anyone can expect is for incremental improvements or innovations. Take a movie like The Matrix for example. When it came out people were wowed by the effects and imagery. Was it the first Sci-Fi effects-driven movie? No. Was it heads and shoulders above what came before it? Not really. What it did was combine all the elements of previous movies of that genre into one cohesive whole and do it really well. I think Kalium hit it on the head when he wrote this:

The videos that become popular aren't usually the ones that pioneer something new. They are the ones that pefect it, which is not the same at all. It is the rarest of rare videos that both does something completely new and does it perfectly at the same time.

Seriously, I should just quote all of BMA's post again.

AMVing is a remix culture that is inherently limited by the sources you are using, like someone stated earlier. The possible exceptions to this are the projects that create something new like original animation or original audio, but even those ideas have been done various ways. Take the concept too far and the video may not even be considered an AMV itself, confined to the definition of an AMV by this site.

The whole "art" of AMVs is similar to that of Rap and Hip-Hop music. Beginning with rapping over existing beats and music loops, it evolved into sampling and remixing, combining sometimes disparate items into something new. Eventually, it spawned newer sub-forms of music, either directly or indirectly. But the core genre to me has stagnated. What was once avant-garde is now the mainstream. Look at the tracklist of the latest NOW compilation (no. 21). Over half of the music listed is either Rap/Hip-Hop, or has elements of the style incorporated in it. In fact, unless I'm paying attention, all of tracks from 1 to 11 sound like one giant song. Then we take a detour with track 12 before returning somewhat with track 13 using a backbeat familiar to the first 11 songs. Then we come to track 14 with a vocal performance and lyrics reminicent of Rap. We then segue into the modern incarnation of popular rock from tracks 15 to 17. Track 18 is a classic example of a remix-type song influenced by Rap elements. Track 19... ahem. And track 20 has it's roots back to Disco, from which Rap borrowed a great deal of it's beats and rhythms.

Finally, if a video does come out that takes this hobby to a new level, will we even realize it when it happens? Me, I'll just putter along making and watching AMVs for the entertainment value.

[Ingow]

Fluxy I know that your post was addressed directly to Beo and I hope that you won't feel like being attacked but there are some things that I feel I just need to mention. No offense intended really, but there are just some parts of your post that made me think a lot.

Your own video Dead To the World is an example of you wanting to express yourself. If you made it with the intention of outdoing or earning bragging rights, congratulations you wasted a lot of time on something you don't truly believe in.

I don't think that this is about bragging at all. Beo was just pointing out that he's got a right to give some of his own personal suggestions out to the community for discussion. Which, I think, should be a right everyone even people who didn't do any videos at all should have. But since the argument "shut up because you got nothing to say in that matter" came up Beo is just trying to defend himself by mentioning his own work in the development of this whole AMV community. Of course it shouldn't be a problem to start with but people are stupid.

I believe we don't need anything in the way of leadership. I would prefer a community of admiration and respect for everyone's works as opposed to one where people say "oh your video isn't super-popular-video-x so shut up until one of your videos is more popular than it."

And what do you think comes closer to this kind of vision? What Beo is striving for or where we're currently at? What we're currently at is exactly what you don't seem to want to have. Nobody wants to have some kind of an AMV leader that tells everyone what to create and what not but if I look at the mass of AMVs that are getting released where I always see the same effects, the same songs used, the same animes used and the same ways of synching it just all comes down to the one resolution that a lot of people don't really act freely as in express themselves and their real own styles of editing. Instead, it's just a lot of copying things over and over again. Not that this is something new or wrong, it's just that we can't move on to any next step (as people already mentioned this is a normal process in any kind of hobby or art form). I mean, over the course of history there have always been people that didn't want to be freed from anything because they didn't feel oppressed. For example the people from iraq are still into their old leader, wrong and right is always a matter of perspective. Those men felt free and they didn't see anything wrong with their situation, that doesn't mean that they truly were. Of course it is elitist to think of it that way but like you already mentioned about real life living in a society without intellectual leaders such as politicians wouldn't be possible. And for me it's the same principle. Not only for AMVs or hobbies, but mostly for everything that has to do with socializing. A society based on random dumbfucks on the top is going to hell, especially when it all centers around one person such as in a dictatorship. It's like calling Tony Hawk elitist because he's got a game with his name on it.

Does saying the top 10% sucks ever help... at all? This isn't politics, it's not like your opinion that some band sucks will actually affect the fans who like it.

A community without communication ain't no community. If Beo thinks that the Top 10 sucks he should have the freedom of speech to say it and to denounce the things that he doesn't like. Mostly what you're saying in your post is that art lies in the eye of the beholder but I just don't get why you're going for a "Stop trying to force things on people" statement, because I don't see any force coming from Beo. I see this more like a good political speech to underline what you or your party stands for, of course there needs to be some emotion and force behind your voice but it's not like all of those that are on Beos side including me are forced in any way to agree. Or that we are trying to force people, it's more like if your country would be going to ruins or in a bad political direction, would you just stand by and watch? Since you can't change what people want to do anyway? So yeah as you can see I do think that this can be compared a lot to politics as well as other hobbies such as sports and the real life in general.

Look how creative an anime music video editor is... you combine other people's works together, cut them up, slap some filters and/or effects on... and redeliver the product.

I think that this is one of the main points. None of us could possibly draw any new footage or do real original animation, an entire studio is needed for this kind of thing. So about every member of the AMV community has come to the conclusion that this is just some fun hobby with not much of a great background behind it. The reality I say is that we have two of the most powerful tools in our hands to express ourselves. We got music and imaginery. We have the possibilites to choose from a whole bunch of series the exact one we want to use, and we can choose from an unlimited amount of music. Actually I think that you can express yourself faster, cheaper and with less effort through AMVs than through doing your own movies. So why not try it? I mean I rarely see AMVs having topics about AIDS, suicide, depressions, world hunger or peace on earth but it would be possible. You know, take some funny anime with some black guys in them and make it via effects a serious message about ghettos in america. It would be possible, and I'd love to see stuff like that because this must be some of the most mature things a teenager can possibly do without working for some company. Instead it's your own work, nobody helped you create it, you think it's more original what you do when you're working in an animation stuido? You get the drawing style from the one and only manga/anime artist to work with and start doing black and white frames together with 50 other people that do exactly the same stuff you do. I can't see that as being very original. Directing your own short movies is the only good alternative I could come up in my mind right now (mostly because of Machine's work).

I will even change the scene on a beat, which as we know is the most original concept ever.

Gee I don't know we would have to check if offbeat synching isn't even more popular