Source Footage Ethics Symposium - I'm blowing your mind!

[BasharOfTheAges]

Ninja edit: If nothing else, it's spurred some intelegent debate here. Something the forums have been lacking in quite some time. If I have to put my self out there as a total fool to do it, i don't paticularly mind (Gods Dark Angel, does that answer your question?). I'd like to hear some more well thought our and well articulated ideas on the subject if any of you are still willing.

[Unlimited Rice]

I was claiming that certain things like borrowing, buying used, and renting were equally unethical...

just wondering... would you say that buying them while they're on sale go along with those?

[madbunny]

Madbunny. This topic wasn't intended to be about laws, but about the "moral guidelines" that dictate what we can and cannot discuss on the site. I was claiming that certain things like borrowing, buying used, and renting were equally unethical based on the only given reasoning i've ever seen and thus should also be banned avenues of conversation. Of course this won't happen, but it's nice to point out our flaws once in a while.

No way around laws. Laws are 'by and large' how we as a society define moral and ethical behaviors to fit within guidelines. Pretty much any codified set of rules works that way, so long as it's not the brainchild of a satanist or some antisocietal freak.

You are right. Copying and burning both DVDs and Music cds is illegal and thus should be theoretically banned. If we are willing to discus how to make DVD footage cleaner and more or less better looking for the purpose of editing, then we should also be prepared to discus how to fix raw footage as well. Wait... actually there are lots of topics on that subject. Similarly, there are lots of ways listing how to clean up subtitles, hard subs and so on.

What this site doesn't have is WHERE to get footage from. discussing "blah blah, torrent, download etc' is off limits. No reason why not. It's just the rule. Thus: the .org functions. We dont' have to like it, but we don't have to like speed limits on the freeway either. (Similarly, most of us will ignore them when we can).

Sorry didn't mean to derail your topic.

[downwithpants]

to the creator's wallet, there's no difference borrowing or using fansubs. however, in both cases of reselling and borrowing, the creator has potentially driven up the demand for the DVD. with fansubs, the creator is only lowering her demand for the DVD without raising anyone else's.

Driven up the demand you say. To whom exactly? Surely not the creator himself. He already has the DVD in question. Do you mean he'd drive up the demand through his work (i.e. promoting the series)? How would the actual source matter then (legit or otherwise)?

the demand of the buyer of the DVD.

in the case of reselling, the buyer is more likely to purchase the DVD (or future DVDs) because she knows she can resell it if she doesn't like it.

in the case of borrowing, the buyer might consider the purchase of the DVD (or future DVDs) a better investment knowing that her video editing friend might find it useful.

in the case of fansubbing, assuming the fansubber bought the anime, the creator does not affect the demand of the buyer (the fansubber).

[Douggie]

I'm kinda wondering how the Japanese people think of all this (as we heard it mostly from an American POV). I mean, I've never heard a Japanese company attacking fansubs (might be wrong though) and from what I've heard 2nd hand and rentals are quite a huge business in Japan (well, at least in videogames and music, I don't really know about anime). There are quite an amount of stores doing that: I've seen pictures and I wish A. we had those all over the world and B. people are more caring with their stuff as the Japanese!

[requiett]

You guys spend so much time bullshitting each other, it's a wonder you get any vids done at all.

[BasharOfTheAges]

You guys spend so much time bullshitting each other, it's a wonder you get any vids done at all.

Well, I certainly don't. Though i'm at work, so I wouldn't either way.

Douggie: At least one company Japanese company has let out a bunch of C&D orders fairly reciently.

[Willen]

The way I look at buying used is that the "support" of the original purchase gets transferred to you, via the seller. In a way, it is like the previous owner becomes another middleman in the retail chain (and many times this is the case). In a roundabout way, it does support the general industry, although no additional revenue goes to the original companies/creators involved. But they did already get their share on that particular physical copy you have in your hands now. And if that person you bought the used copy off of goes and then uses the money they received from the transaction to go buy other (new) anime, then buying used DOES help the industry.

[angelx03]

I'm kinda wondering how the Japanese people think of all this (as we heard it mostly from an American POV). I mean, I've never heard a Japanese company attacking fansubs (might be wrong though)....

Media Factory

[Arigatomina]

I was claiming that certain things like borrowing, buying used, and renting were equally unethical...and thus should also be banned avenues of conversation.

How to approach this...

Let's start with what makes an action ethical - if it supports the creators of the content we're using. That's your stance, right? All the actions are unethical because you don't think they support the creator. And they're all at the same level of "no support" so they're all equally unethical. That's how I'm reading you.

I think that's a good place to start right there. An unethical action hurts someone. An ethical action doesn't have to help (support) someone to be ethical, it just has to not hurt anyone who doesn't deserve to be hurt. Ethics are our "right and wrong" - slapping an innocent stranger is unethical, slapping someone trying to steal your wallet is ethical. Few wouldn't say self defense is unethical just because it doesn't help anyone but yourself. There's no guideline saying the you have to be altruistic or even 'pat my back and I'll pat yours' in order to be ethical. It's not about doing nice things for those who deserve it, it's about not doing bad things to those who don't deserve it.

That's how I view ethical versus unethical. So the debate is skewed from the start. How can we argue whether the various actions are unethical if we don't agree on the definition of unethical?

Borrowing a dvd does not hurt anyone. Giving a dvd to your friends because you hate it and wish you'd never wasted your money on it doesn't hurt anyone. Not the company, not the friend, not yourself. You paid for it - did the "right thing" by the seller (and took the assumption that he did the right thing by the company that sold the product to him). If I decide to sell my car, I'm not being unethical. I'm being realistic. It doesn't matter if I sell it to car lot that will canibalize it and use the parts to make profit in their repairs. It doesn't even matter if they decide to give the car away for free. It's my car, I paid for it. I can do whatever I want with it. The same is true for dvds, cassette tapes, and cds. Whether or not the person who buys it from me decides to break the law using that item is an entirely different matter. Reselling, giving, or renting already-purchased items is legal. Ripping video content to distribute on the internet is illegal. Ethics doesn't come in until you knowingly do wrong - which every single editor on this site who doesn't create his own music and footage does with every video. The ethical argument surrounding second hand footage deals with the ethics of making amvs at all. It has nothing to do with the transactions surrounding the physical dvds because those are entirely legal in our country.

Bootlegs are stolen to begin with. They're stolen and then resold - theft plus profit. When you buy them, you're contributing to the problem, adding another slap in the face to the innocent original owners of the property. It's the same thing as buying fenced tvs out of the back of a car. You know it's stolen and you're doing it anyway. You're providing a market for stolen material, encouraging the theifs to steal more so they can make an even bigger profit. That's unethical. I can't see how anyone could compare the ethics of bootlegging to legal acts like borrowing, reselling, or renting legally purchased dvds.

Fansubs/raws are a gray area. We already participate in the illegal distribution of copywritten footage when we let others download our videos. Downloading full episodes is just a step away from downloading amvs as far as the laws are concerned. Ethics are a matter of opinion. I don't think it's unethical to make and distribute amvs because I'm not hurting anyone. I don't think fansubs hurt anyone either, at least, not until the anime is licensed and you still have people downloading those fansubs rather than purchasing the anime. That's the problem with fansubs - they don't auto-destruct when the anime is licensed. The fansubbers stop, but the online distribution doesn't. And you can't make those episodes disappear from the net. In trying to help build a fanbase for the anime, which can help get it to the market quicker, they will eventually hurt the anime. Does making amvs with those freely distributed fansubs affect the owner of the content? No. So long as I'm not the one distributing the entire episodes, or using episodes from a licensed anime, I don't feel any more unethical for using fansubs than I do for distributing amvs in the first place. Until there is money involved, no one is being 'hurt' by fansubs. And the subbers will continue whether I make a vid with their content or not - so I'm not contributing to their actions. I don't know if they're helping the anime or not, and I don't really care. As long as I don't know they're hurting the anime, I have no guilt over the source.

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Maybe being ethical is just a matter of whether or not you feel bad about doing something. We're not talking about society's ethics here, which are determined by the lawmakers rather than the people. It's a matter of individual opinion within a small group of lawbreakers. Amv-editors. We're all going down together, whether some of us feel bad about our actions or not.

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The org's policy to not promote the distribution of entire episodes, or to promote the purchase of outright stolen material, is a simple saftey measure. We know bootlegs are unethical as well as being openly illegal. We don't know if downloadable episodes are unethical (matter of opinion), but we know they're illegal and targeted by license holders. There's no reason for us to associate with openly illegal (and possibly unethical) sources of the footage used for amvs. That doesn't mean we should start banning legally obtained sources, because of some question of whether or not those sources 'help/promte' the anime. It's not a matter of helping or not helping. Fansub sites get shut down by anime companies. Bootlegs are illegal in just about every country (purchasing, selling, or even owning - they're like drugs). Sure, we should stear clear of associating with those things. No anime company complains about rental stores or places like Game Stop (a store near me that purchases and resells used anime). If they start complaining, we can start banning.