Fanfics are like AMVs...

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SQ
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Post by SQ » Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:33 pm

Hrm.
So true... But everyone's said everything I wanted to say already. =\
Sadly I'm horrible at writing fics because I know I can't stay true to the character I'm trying to portray... Which is why I stopped writing fanfics. Hell... I was better on fictionpress, before I tried to publish something... And then figured out it was subsidy and went :shock: .

Er, yeah.

Anyway, there's only ONE fanfic that you MUST read. It's super long and is the BEST written thing I have EVER read(including actual books).
It's got some shounen-ai in it, but overall - awesome.
I read that fanfic, and I fulfilled my fanfiction addiction. I mean... You read that once and it makes you want ot forgive everyone who's written a bad fanfic since this one came out to be like... God.

It was about GW, it had vampires in it.. College... I briefly remember Heero dying and then being resurrected in the beginning.... Gah. If anyone knows what I am talking about, and where I could find this fic(again. I am POSITIVE it ISN'T on fanfiction.net) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me...

If only I knew the name of the author and title of the story...

-pouts-
Discord: @standardquip (Vars)
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Arigatomina
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Post by Arigatomina » Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:56 am

This topic is one I've rehashed numerous times on my anime forum, mostly because the people in my group are all fanfic writers for the same fandom - and we've seen a huge influx of rubbish lately. But I'd agree with what some others have said here - it's like amvs, the more people doing it the harder it is to find the worthwhile read. But that's where the agreement ends. I think in some cases it's *much* easier to make an amv than it is to make a fanfic.

First, what are you using in both? Characters. If a fanfic features a character and doesn't have him written *as* that character (IC), it's not a fanfic. But for an amv, all you have to do is have footage of that character and it's automatically IC. And even if you're doing an odd crossover vid, you don't have to spend time thinking up a history to explain why a certain character might be doing things he normally wouldn't do (mostly for AU) - you just change the scenes used and it's him doing different things - no explanation needed. No one can look at an amv featuring a certain character and say it's not that character - the only way you can make fanfics that easy is to use screencaps to tell a story. That's why doujinshi's (and no, not just the sexual ones, the fluff and story books are good as well) work nicely - because they draw the characters and you know it's them, there's less reason to explain why they may be acting strangely.

And then there's the story itself. With an amv you're limited to the song if you're telling a story by lyric sync, or you're limited by the available footage if you're telling it by pictures alone. With a fanfic there *is* no limit - the only thing hindering you is how far you can stretch the anime and still keep the characters. This actually makes it harder, because the more imagination the harder you'll have to work to keep the characters 'in character' - while an imaginative/creative amv just has to have pretty pictures and/or effects to be good. I'd definitely say aside from the technical aspect (capture/editing), fanfics are much harder to make.

I'll have to skirt the issue of yaoi fanfics being bad and non-yaoi being good since that's been identified as false. All fanfics suck. I know, that's a generalization, but think about it. If you don't agree with the way a writer imagines the character, you won't like the fanfic. And unlike amvs, the portrayal of characters doesn't depend on pictures from the original anime - it's dependent on the writer's views and opinions.

You'll find a few writers (very few these days) who will write the characters *just* the way you imagine them acting. And you'll love those fics. And then you'll see the others doing things you don't like, or featuring the characters acting in ways you don't agree with, and you'll think they're 'bad.' They aren't bad, you just have different opinions.

The bad fanfics are the ones written by 13 year olds who can't type or spell, or use complete sentences, or even pass a 3rd grade english course. The bad fanfics are the ones that steal bits and pieces from other fanfics and then kill the ideas with their lack of originality and poor grasp of characterization. The bad fanfics are the ones that use *identified* cliches without even realizing it's been beaten into the ground.

This has nothing to do with characterization and everything to do with the old 'newbie' truth - out of thousands there will be a small number who catch the art of storytelling. In those cases it's no longer a matter of whether the fics are poorly written but whether or not you agree with the way the characters are portrayed. If you do, you'll like it, if you don't, you'll dislike or hate it. But you can't say the fics are bad, just that they don't cater to your interests. This is why people write their own fics - not because the rest are horrid, but because if you want to read your favorite characters acting the way *you* would like them to act, you'll either have to find that rare writer out there who agrees with you and portays them perfectly for your tastes - or write them yourself.

Again - most fanfics you run across (especially now that most older writers have abandoned the fanfic collection areas - the ban on nc-17 on ffnet ran a bunch off, the upcoming ban on rated R fics will chase off the rest until only pg fairy tales are allowed) - these are written by young fans with poor writing skills. If you search you may find a few who create things perfect for your preferences, but don't think the entire collection is horrid just because not everyone agrees with you. It's a difference of opinion.

^_^

That said, I write shonen ai and yaoi fanfics, had a nice little reputation under the GW fandom a few years back, and have made a few small splashes in other areas (YYH being the most recent), and I can honestly say - even if people here think the majority of yaoi fanfics suck, there are a lot of others who skim over the masses of non-yaoi fics on places like ffnet and are disgusted by the inane characterization. That's because they view the characters differently - and most yaoi fanfic writers (at least the good ones) tend to be older. The majority of all writers (with most writers being in the non-yaoi fandom since yaoi is still more of an outcast notion in the US) are early teens with little grasp of writing rules, and an even weaker grasp of plot continuity. I will read a fic with horrid characterization if the plot is an interesting one - but if the story is weak, it's just a bad fanfic. This is true with any fandom, yaoi or non-yaoi, and it depends more on the reader's preferences than anything else.

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Post by Arigatomina » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:00 am

SQ wrote:Gah. If anyone knows what I am talking about, and where I could find this fic(again. I am POSITIVE it ISN'T on fanfiction.net) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me...

If only I knew the name of the author and title of the story...

-pouts-
If you aren't a member of any yahoo groups, go there and join up:
http://groups.yahoo.com
Then do a search for any of these groups:
1x2ml, gwing, hdml
join up with one (if you get on 1x2ml you'll be set) and post a 'fic search' - describe the fic again and I *promise* you'll get pointed to the fic within a day or two. ^_^;; I read that fic a long time back, and have had it recommended to me quite a few times. But I didn't really like the fantasy genre that much, so I don't have a link to it. Just join the 1x2ml and they'll set you up quickly.

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Post by gundamzuki » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:32 am

While reading this thread, one word seems to be repeated more than any other. Yaoi. Nothing against it. I agree with Arigatomyna quite a lot on the subject. But what is it that we talk about that type of fanfic more than any other. Case in point, when i put the link in my last post on this thread i got spammed with some wrather BAD Gundam W Yaoi. Why?
"There is the Real World, and it is nice. And then there's math." -Prof. Bevelaqua, U. of N. Dakota, Grand Forks

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Post by patrick_wilson » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:35 am

Dannywilson wrote:I urge anyone that wants to read a good fic, read The Saotome Gambit. No not X-men's Gambit! Gambit as in a bet. The premise sounded hokey to me at first, but as I read it, I realized that J. Austin Wilde could be a published author if he wanted to. His ability to spin a tale and keep the reader interested is unsurpaased in my opinion.
I urge anyone who wants a good ass raping visit danny's ass believe me danny started pounding my ass slow but once he got in to it i realized danny can be a published gay porn star
listen I am not particular i wanna have gay phone sex pleeze call me tonight (907)688-2023. I also do animals. incest is best. Guess who cares afterall
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/v ... hp?t=24375

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Post by Arigatomina » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:48 am

gundamzuki wrote:While reading this thread, one word seems to be repeated more than any other. Yaoi. Nothing against it. I agree with Arigatomyna quite a lot on the subject. But what is it that we talk about that type of fanfic more than any other. Case in point, when i put the link in my last post on this thread i got spammed with some wrather BAD Gundam W Yaoi. Why?
Heh, it seems that most flames in the fanfic community come from yaoi or non-yaoi fans - if you write yaoi fanfiction, any flames you get will be from het fans who say you should rot in hell. If you write het fanfics you'll get complaints from non-yaoi fans about the writing quality being bad. I'm sure there are a few out there who flame het fics because they like the yaoi pairings better, but most are complaints about self-insertion. While most flames from non-yaoi fans are complaints about gays needing to be staked and sent to rot in hell for eternity. It makes some tension between the two writing/reading communities. If you'd like some examples, I'd be happy to link you up with some -
http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=36850
Just skirt through the reviews I've gotten - any flames on there are from non-yaoi fans (though I try to delete as many as possible.) There was a nice epidemic a while back from the 'yaoi-hater' who went through the entire ffnet yaoi fanbase flaming every single fic that gave a shonen ai or yaoi warning. It makes the big controversy into a yaoi or non-yaoi argument.

But really, it's still just a matter of preference and character interpretation. ^_^ I'm sure if you do a search of the fics for an anime you like, you'll see that any flaming reviews are either yaoi flaming non-yaoi writers for being poor writers, or non-yaoi people flaming yaoi writers for needing to burn in hell fire. ^_^ It's a nice place to be, really.

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Post by gundamzuki » Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:12 am

i'm not really into either shonen ai or yaoi. If people wish to write/read it then more power to them, it's not really my buisness. I was just wondering why this thread seems to think that yaoi itself makes a bad fanfic. For me a fanfic's worth is not in it's exploits, but in how well it is able to hold the reader.
"There is the Real World, and it is nice. And then there's math." -Prof. Bevelaqua, U. of N. Dakota, Grand Forks

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Post by Arigatomina » Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:19 am

gundamzuki wrote:i'm not really into either shonen ai or yaoi. If people wish to write/read it then more power to them, it's not really my buisness. I was just wondering why this thread seems to think that yaoi itself makes a bad fanfic. For me a fanfic's worth is not in it's exploits, but in how well it is able to hold the reader.
Well, I think it's that yaoi makes it easier to call a fanfic bad. With yaoi, all you have to do is say it's immoral and wrong - hence it's bad and evil. With het fanfics you have to actually point out problems before you can complain and call it bad. So people don't like yaoi fanfics, they can say it's bad because it's evil and disgusting. If people don't like het, they have to find some reason to show why it's bad. Either way it's just people dissing what they don't like, and trying to find reasons why they're 'superior' and 'right' for not liking it. No one wants to admit that they dislike something because they're different - instead they can say they dislike it because it's bad. And it makes them look better. :roll:

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Post by BishounenStalker » Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:41 am

Something tells me I was a bit misunderstood here. I'm not calling yaoi/shounen-ai/slash fic bad in and of itself. I'm more open-minded than that. It's just that most of the yaoi I've seen was, for all intents and purposes, poorly written. The characterization was wretched (the way the less dominant male was portrayed, he might as well have been a woman. And an annoying one at that. Or alternately, both parties involved had no love at all and just screwed like gerbils until one of them slit his wrists), and the plot (if any) was the same horse being beaten into the ground (example: A loves B, B's not sure, C wants to see A and B happy, crisis happens, A and B finally wake up and smell the pheromones, C throws a party).

But I have come across the occasional shounen-ai fic that actually portrayed the characters believably (that is to say, without the gay stereotype of a macho-weakling pair. A very old, tired, and somewhat false stereotype), and actually had a besides-the-obvious plot going. And those were actually enjoyable.

It's just that for some odd reason I've seen less character assassination in het fics. And by character assassination, I mean "Male Has Obvious Female Love Interest Or Hits on Any Woman in Sight and Shows Absolutely no Interest in Men, But He MUST Be Gay Because I Can't Stand Het Couples" (as opposed to the perfectly reasonable "Male has no Female Love Interest and Shows No Interest in Women Whatsoever, Therefore the Possibility of His Being Gay Actually Exists"). However, that doesn't mean I'm calling ALL yaoi fic bad. It just means that I haven't found as many good reads in yaoi as I have in het. But the worthy reads I have found in yaoi I do acknowledge as being good fics.

But I'll shamelessly admit that I've come across a great deal of bad het fic, too. The kind where the characterization sucked (strong-willed female badass is suddenly a weeping virgin while passive, mild-mannered male turns into Ahhnold clone), and the plot rivalled that of a grocery store romance novel for triteness. I lump those and the aforementioned bad yaoi fics into the same category of bad fic in general. But for some odd reason, I've come across just plain bad characterization more in yaoi than I have in het. But it could be that I was looking in the wrong places (and no, Fanfiction.net doesn't count. I don't think I've read ANY fic from that site in the last three years unless someone rec'ed one to me).

Bottom line is that fanfic has gone downhill even faster than AMVs, simply because fanfic doesn't require complicated software or a souped-up computer to create (I write mine on a 3-year-old Compaq with Wordpad, for crying out loud), nor does it require very much time to upload (no fanfic I've ever seen tapped out at 40MB). But in a sense, the Org is like the Fanfiction.net of AMVs. Quantity, not necessarily quality. While the Donut is a godsend for poor creators who can't afford hosting, it's also a Pandora's Box that's let the influx of newbies post really bad AMVs.

In the same way, Fanfiction.net has done the same thing with fanfics. Back in The Day, we had to actually get webhosting, update a website, and advertise it in order for anyone to find our fics and give feedback. Now with Fanfiction.net, those are no longer a worry. There's no site to manage and no advertising to be done because the service does it all for us. It actually takes the WORK out of fanfic. Unfortunately, it also takes out the effort. Hence, it's become easier for new writers to post bad fics.

But once in a while, there crops up a gem of the story that somehow makes things worth it. Even if those onces-in-whiles don't occur as often as I'd like.
-- Rachel the Demon, Resident Quoter of Obscure Nostalgia
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Post by showstoppa » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:43 am

Might as well throw in my two cents. I'm a mediocre original fanfiction writer that's been writing for 2+ years. I've read fanfiction for a lot longer, about 6 years now. To be frank, a lot of fanfic no matter what genre is nothing but pure crap.

Reasons being

Too many hormonal little demons in the stew that is fanfiction.
Too many authors that wouldn't know grammar if it came and bit them in the ass and danced the Macarena neekid.
Too many PWP fics that aren't fun and are just plain stoopid.
Too many authors who can't take constructive criticism because it interferes with their "vision."
Too many stories that have characters do stuff that they wouldn't do if you put a gun to his or her head because BY GOD, IT SHALL BE DONE BY THE WILL OF THE AUTHOR, BWAH BWAH!
Too many stories with plot points beaten into the ground like Aeris coming back from the afterlife and going after Cloud.

I'll end by saying that while fanfiction is going to hell in a handbasket, I still hold hope for finding stories with good characterization, a decent plot, or just something that's funny as hell or a fic that has the characters go through change. (IMO, Pokemon hasn't learned this lesson and it's been on for how long?)
Your intelligence is stupid-Invader Zim

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