Hatter vs. Tab: The Codec Grudge Match [SPLIT]

[Dannywilson]

The only way it could be a problem is if you're burning XSVCDs. Most all set top players that I've dealt with can handle the max bit rate of an SVCD burned on standard 700mb CD, hence the reason they say "SVCD compatible" on the box. If it's only VCD compatible and you're burning an SVCD, it probably will still be able to play, but then it might have frame skipping because it can't handle the higher bit rate on the data CD.

The whole original argument was about having a higher bitrate ceilings on DVD's rather than burned cds. You can pull a 2778kps data rate(video and audio) with the svcd standard, but a 1.8(Mpeg1)/9.8mps(Mpeg2) data rate with burned DVD, as well as having a wider range of compatability, especially with the recent advances in DVD-/+R compatability.

[Tab.]

Dude it's pretty simple. Anyway, it's interesting that when I start tossing aruond all kinds of lame insults and not making any points, you step back and start trying to make sense. THAT's called irony.

Have you tried to drop that mpeg 4 file onto gspot? There's nothing there to identify the codec data as xvid. It's generic mpeg 4 video. Mpeg 4 advanced simple profile video is it's own codec. Saying this mp4 file is xvid or divx is like saying this mpeg is tmpg or cce. It's reguardless in light of the standard. That's the point of the standard.

DivX 3 wasn't a program, it was a microsoft dll (msmpeg4v3) that got locked from use in vfw so M$ could keep it secure in their asf format only. That's why DivX 3 exists, that's why the dll was cracked. Go look at fkcin divx mpeg 4 fast motion and then go look at msmpeg4v3. The bitrate range is the same damn thing, no clue wtf you got the idea that that's why/where the crack originated. It was cracked so it could continue to be used in avi.

By the way, this is the only community I generally offer advice in, because it's one of the only video related forums I frequent. Nobody here says, omglf, he's released 2365 different anime under a popular group. He must know what he's talking about. They kind of assume that if you can explain it, you can understand it.

Congratulations, you got me to rationalize myself. I must be feeling generous.


Part 2: or, quotations make you cool

You're using Windows Media Player? *shakes head* Boy this really just keeps gettin better and better.

You really don't have a grasp on this stuff, do you?:| Windows Media Player 6.4 is a bare-bones directshow player that's included in every version of windows from 95 up. It's similar to playing something back with graphedit, but with a bit more control over playback functions and less control over the filter graph. I don't need bsplayer, mpc, coremedia, zoomplayer just for watching encoded stuff and tweaking the dshow filter chain. You'd be right in saying that I encode more than I watch.. but I already said that. I'm more into the theory of compression than anything.

Yeah it's too bad the people who made the SVCD standard didn't have you around to tell them how to do it, I mean, you know EVERYTHING after all, huh?

No pretty much anyone who knows anything about video theory can tell you that horizontal resolution isn't half as important as vertical. It would have been much more logical to use 1/2 D1, the resolution for the competing CVD standard, since the visual difference is minimal, the resolution is more natural (2/3 D1 my ass), and the smaller size allows for more bpp. Fortunately you can use 352x480 on SVCD in most players without a problem.

Um, it's actually not interlaced, Dear. The original did have some deinterlacing artifacts, however I went through by hand and fixed every single one in my AMV.

oh

Only a slight bit in the intro and only if you've got your head glued 2 inches from the screen.

No, it was pretty much all over the place.

Oh really? No offense, but maybe you need a better MPEG-2 decoder. Do you even KNOW what an MPEG-2 decoder you're using? I would suggest Ligos and do make sure you have the overlay mixer turned on. Might also wanna get yourself a REAL media player, not one that was outdated like 5 years ago.

See you say things like this and then you want me to refrain from calling you an idiot point blank. The freakin decoder doesn't affect rainbowing whatsoever. Analog conversions where Y seeps into U and V causes rainbowing. The opposite reaction causes dot crawl. Btw, free cl00 and etc, none of the media players you're using are any less outdated than wmp 6.4. The player doesn't do anything but bells and whistles, all the stuffing is in the directshow api and the filter graphs parsing and decoding your shit. I've got about 6 or 7 different mpeg 2 decoders on this system, and none of them will make any difference in the rainbows.

Only one scene, during the chorus, repeats and it's done for a specific effect. See, this is why you don't make AMVs.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to insert a bunch of BS about how what you stated doesn't prove any point about why I do or don't make AMVs.

It was made with TMPGEnc, but then why woud I use anything else, it *IS* the fasted MPEG encoder there is. And uh, I did not use the default settings when I encoded it either.

Uh, no. CCE is the fastest. And you sure didn't do anything fancy to the GOPs, cause all I see is default, default, default.

has some outdated version of WMP installed on his system

hey, cupcake and whatever. See that start>run button? Click it. Type in mplayer2.exe. You'd be amazed at the stuff you have installed.

AND on top of all that watches AMVs without audio... o_O

I guess I misinterpreted

Have you seen the footage used in my latest AMV?

I thought I was watching it to critique the amatuerish footage, not for it's artistic beauty or whatever.

Well gee, DivX 5.02 has been around for quite some time now, doesn't seem to be going anywhere, they must be doing SOMETHING right

Then how comes they upgrade at least as often as xvid? Or did you miss the train where we're up to divx 5.1.1 now.

I hope calling me names hopes you to think you're right,

what

I'm kinda through trying to enlighten you about things you've actively chosen not to involve yourself in. A person can spend their whole life studying the game of say basketball...but that's no substitute for actually PLAYING the game. Maybe when you get as OLD as I am...heh, you might understand that.

Thanks for your valuable life lessons. Next time I'll make sure to enroll before you start needless controversey in a thread about some kid releasing his amv with subs.

[Pie Row Maniac]

The insults don't help the arguement. The point of them... ?

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

The insults don't help the arguement. The point of them... ?

The point is that Tab. doesn't seem to have an argument. So far he's ignored pretty much everything I've said and keeps side stepping and nitpicking on just about any topic he can find to distract everybody from the real issue. Which is if you're going to make an AMV and you want multiple audio/video streams, which format should you use?

I say OGM because it's the format that's most widely supported and it works. Anyone whose downloaded the k-lite codec pack (quite literally millions), can watch it without a hitch. If you use some half baked unfinished format that isn't supported by, well, anyone. That you only even know about if you hang out 24/7 on Doom9, yeah, probably not the best idea.

[Tab.]

Hey, I'm only responding to what you've been saying, so if I'm sidestepping anything, it's through your roundabout arguments.

Uh... hatter.. you missed one tiny little detail. K-lite also comes with everything you need to play matroska AND mp4.

Well, that pretty much destroys your arguement. That was unexpectedly easy

[Zarxrax]

[inanitydishamen]

If we all just installed the K-lite codec pack we'd all be bowing down to THE MAN. THE MAN is an entity that strives to ruin your shit and fuck you up.

FIGHT THE POWER.

everyone on three:

cupcake sunshine *snicker* o_O free cl00 ROTFL... wantwit asscricket lames and most importantly...

who gives a shit.

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

Dude it's pretty simple.

Here we go again, another shlock of self superiority complex mixed in with some 3rd grade insults and talking down to people.

Anyway, it's interesting that when I start tossing aruond all kinds of lame insults and not making any points, you step back and start trying to make sense. THAT's called irony.

...uh huh, or maybe you just don't know me as well as you think you do. For some reason some of you seem to have this misconception that I don't know anything and get into arguments to learn new things...sorry, but that's not it. Sometimes I like to downplay my knowledge a bit in order to use people to run experiments and such for me, but never to actually LEARN anything. If I wanted to learn more about it, I can think of countless technical FAQs on the subject.

Have you tried to drop that mpeg 4 file onto gspot? There's nothing there to identify the codec data as xvid. It's generic mpeg 4 video. Mpeg 4 advanced simple profile video is it's own codec. Saying this mp4 file is xvid or divx is like saying this mpeg is tmpg or cce. It's reguardless in light of the standard. That's the point of the standard.

First of all, I have no idea what mpeg 4 file you're even talking about or HOW you managed to stray so far off topic, but uh, well whatever blows yer hair back. GSpot tends to be fairly accurate, at least the times I've used it, tells me pretty much exactly whether it's DivX5, XVid, or whatever. Only once in fact can I ever recall it misreporting a file and that's cause it got munged up somehow when someone tried to reencode it. Again though I point out that this has NOTHING to do with the original topic, which for some reason you don't seem to want to talk about.

DivX 3 wasn't a program, it was a microsoft dll (msmpeg4v3) that got locked from use in vfw so M$ could keep it secure in their asf format only. That's why DivX 3 exists, that's why the dll was cracked.

...and now suddenly you're agreeing with me. o_O

Dude, what's up with you today?

By the way, this is the only community I generally offer advice in, because it's one of the only video related forums I frequent. Nobody here says, omglf, he's released 2365 different anime under a popular group. He must know what he's talking about. They kind of assume that if you can explain it, you can understand it.

Refer back to my basketball example.

Congratulations, you got me to rationalize myself. I must be feeling generous.

Wow, the king has a moment of self reflection.

You really don't have a grasp on this stuff, do you?:| Windows Media Player 6.4 is a bare-bones directshow player that's included in every version of windows from 95 up. It's similar to playing something back with graphedit, but with a bit more control over playback functions and less control over the filter graph.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't take the time to remember every last version number of WMP, I personally use Zoom. Most of us just refer to that "bare-bones directshow player" as Windows Media Player Classic...although some of us are using the tweaked out version included in the K-Lite codec pack which can also play Quicktime and RealMedia files. If you're using the actual standard version that comes with Win95, etc...I would suggest trying out the one in the K-Lite codec pack.

I don't need bsplayer, mpc, coremedia, zoomplayer just for watching encoded stuff and tweaking the dshow filter chain. You'd be right in saying that I encode more than I watch.. but I already said that. I'm more into the theory of compression than anything.

Well I'm sure when I eventually release my codec it'll be like Christmas for you. Already it can achieve 30% better lossless compression* than Huffyuv...although unlike some people I know that a slight amount of improvement does not equal a winner. Being a winner means not only making the codec, but making it so that it becomes mainstream, to do that I need something a bit more impressive.

*it's 30% better theoretical lossless compression, not all the color fusion combinations have actually been unfused and checked for coherency, the margin of error so far that I have had to deal with has been very low. Like one or two pixels that unfuse as 122 156 255 instead of 123 156 255

No pretty much anyone who knows anything about video theory can tell you that horizontal resolution isn't half as important as vertical.

Personally I prefer to refer to them as HLPI and PPHL, horizontal lines per image and pixels per horizonal line. It's a much better way of saying it than vertical and horizonal resolution, since those are kinda misleading.

Of course that's kinda going into MY personal theories about video encoding, compression, etc, etc...you're welcome to view it any way you like.

It would have been much more logical to use 1/2 D1, the resolution for the competing CVD standard, since the visual difference is minimal, the resolution is more natural (2/3 D1 my ass), and the smaller size allows for more bpp. Fortunately you can use 352x480 on SVCD in most players without a problem.

You can argue semantics about quality all you like, the bottom line is that most of the stuff I have that was ripped from DVDs and then encoded in SVCD looks better than the regular cable TV broadcast. I mean, it's moving ink, it's not about perfection. If it was they would be doing every anime series in photorealistic digital rendering.

BTW 480x576 is usually better than using 352x480...although neither of which will play in "most players" very well at all as you claim. For reference you might wanna check out SD-6s encodes of Seaquest DSV.

Um, it's actually not interlaced, Dear. The original did have some deinterlacing artifacts, however I went through by hand and fixed every single one in my AMV.

oh<snip

One lil flaw, hardly anything to throw a fit over. I probably could have gone over every frame slower, but then as I mentioned before, if you spend too much time seeking perfection you won't ever get anything done.

Only a slight bit in the intro and only if you've got your head glued 2 inches from the screen.

No, it was pretty much all over the place.

Maybe you should try not sitting so close to the computer screen next time. To put a point on it though, MPEG-2 at the bit rates you're limited with in SVCD do have limitations as far as quality. Granted I could have done more stuff out of spec, but then if I did that I could have just as easily encoed it with XVid. The point was to make it so that the maximum number of people possible would be able to download it, burn it, and watch in on their set tops. And honestly Tab., compared to 98%+ of all the AMVs being churned out these days, the quality was near perfect.

See you say things like this and then you want me to refrain from calling you an idiot point blank. The freakin decoder doesn't affect rainbowing whatsoever.

First of all, most of the rainbowing you're seeing isn't from anything I or the original encoder did, but the people who made the DVDs. Granted it's no where near as bad as say the Oh My Goddess DVDs, but it had it's moments. Second, the "freakin decoder" DOES affect rainbowing. Many good decoders have algorithms to reduce rainbowing. Granted if you wanted near perfection you could use SmartSmoothIQ or AntiBlink in the encoding phase, but usually it's not so bad that a good decoder with a good comb filter can't handle. Whatever MPEG-2 decoder you're using, it obviously doesn't have a good comb filter cause there's hardly any rainbowing when I watch it...of course you are sort of a perfectionist it seems so maybe even one slight lil error and you have a fit about it. *shrugs*

Only one scene, during the chorus, repeats and it's done for a specific effect. See, this is why you don't make AMVs.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to insert a bunch of BS about how what you stated doesn't prove any point about why I do or don't make AMVs.

My point is that you don't seem to have any creativity because you can't seem to spot any. I mean to you it's just a repeated scene, you don't seem to take any imagination or effort into thinkin, "Hrmmm, maybe he did that for a reason, a cinemetography technique of some kind." Generally speaking most people who don't make AMVs do so because they either have A. a lack of time or B. a lack of imagination. You don't make AMVs...which explanation do you like better?

Uh, no. CCE is the fastest. And you sure didn't do anything fancy to the GOPs, cause all I see is default, default, default.

And what reason would I have to alter the GOPs? I mean, you do understand that there's a REASON for THOSE default settings, right? Oh but do tell, explain to simple me just how the EXPERT would do it. How exactly would you have altered the GOPs and uh, well why and what benefits would there be for doing so...if you don't mind my asking. `, )

hey, cupcake and whatever. See that start>run button? Click it. Type in mplayer2.exe. You'd be amazed at the stuff you have installed.

Not on my system. I do have a tweaked version of WMP Classic on my system that I use to play Real and Quicktime files, but that's about it.

I guess I misinterpreted

Have you seen the footage used in my latest AMV?

I thought I was watching it to critique the amatuerish footage, not for it's artistic beauty or whatever.

Well that might be all well and good, but you stepped out of bounds FIRST on that one, when you made the snide lil comment about repeated footage. At that point you crossed the line from critiquing the footage to the critiquing the art.

Then how comes they upgrade at least as often as xvid? Or did you miss the train where we're up to divx 5.1.1 now.

Don't much care actualy, why don't you go ask em? I don't use DivX, nor do I use XVid, both of those codecs are worthless as far as my target audience.

Thanks for your valuable life lessons. Next time I'll make sure to enroll before you start needless controversey in a thread about some kid releasing his amv with subs.

This coming from the guy who has consistently and methodically tried to push this thread off it's original course. REPEATEDLY have I tried to steer things back on course, but for some reason you keep ignoring the original subject. Gee, I wonder why...

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

Hey, I'm only responding to what you've been saying, so if I'm sidestepping anything, it's through your roundabout arguments.

A lovely IKY, Pee Wee Herman himself couldn't have done a better job.

Uh... hatter.. you missed one tiny little detail. K-lite also comes with everything you need to play matroska AND mp4.

It would seem the latest version does in fact.

What's New:
- Added option to use 3ivx to decode XviD files
- Added msvcr70.dll
- Added Intel Indeo 4.51.16.2
- Added LAME MP3 ACM Codec 3.93.1
- Added AAC DirectShow decoder (CoreAAC) 1.0b7
- Added MusePack DirectShow decoder 1.0.0.2
- Added Matrix Mixer 0.30b
- Added Matroska DirectShow splitter 1.0.1.8
- Updated DivX Pro Encoding to 5.1
- Updated Ogg Vorbis DirectShow splitter to 0.9.9.6
- Updated Ogg Vorbis DirectShow decoder (CoreVorbis) to 1.0b5
- Updated DirectVobSub (vsfilter) to 2.29
- Removed Microsoft MPEG-4 (modified) 4.1.0.3927 / 8.0.0.4487
- Removed Ogg Vorbis ACM 0.0.3.1
- Removed TFM Audio Filter 1.0b8
- Improved compression
- Minor fixes

Oh BTW:
http://betas.intercom.net/modules.php?o ... =0&thold=0

Posted by: Edskes on Oct 17, 2003 - 12:05 AM

You'll have to forgive me if I don't spend every waking moment in itching anticipation of every lil thing video like you do. Considering how long this new release has been out though (seems barely even 2 weeks), it'd still be a better idea to use OGM. Maybe in 6 months when this new release has gotten some good distribution, okay, but even then you're going to be alienating a lot of people. Especially since the K-Lite Codec pack doesn't include any kind of "you should update reminder" like they include on their P2P software.

[Tab.]

Sorry Matt, my entertainment came to a screeching halt when I discovered your whole point is moot (see last post). I'd love to show you where you asked me to explain how you don't understand mpeg 4, where you called divx 3 a program and said it was cracked because of bitrate limitations, and point out all the little critiques you threw in that directly resulted in anything I might have said 'off topic'. But I see no point. The reading is all in the last 4 pages, and if you can't grasp that, then I dunno what to tell ya.

Maybe if you'd get your head out of whoever's ass that is, you'd notice I haven't directed the thread anywhere, just refuted all the crap you've been trucking in

Notes:
- I wouldn't be too keen on MPC, gabest is a frequenter to doom9. Can't have that.
- Try not to confuse sitting too close to the monitor with having a half decent one (an apeture grille will work wonders).
- Why use those GOP's? SVCD doesn't restrict it. The smart thing would be to make it adaptive, perhaps add a b-frame and keep i-frames at a minimum. Then again, *some* players get picky when you violate the DVD spec.

But come now, why stray so far off topic? The topic is closed, after all.