American children continue to fall behind in education

[Kionon]

I actually have a lot of admiration for the teachers who are motivated enough to be involved with the students, witty enough to keep us interested, and cool enough to make us want to do their work.

I think it gets harder the longer you've been doing it. I mean, hey, this is only the beginning of my first year. I'm sure new teachers are a lot more "lets fix everyone, no matter what it takes" before reality sinks in. Not that it takes long for it to happen.

I agree with you about the fact there are people who just aren't suited for academic work. Unfortunately, looks can be deceiving, especially if a student has a specific learning disability that could be overcome if identified, or is just really shy/lacks the confidence to speak out when he or she needs help or doesn't understand.

I hate to say this, but it's a crapshoot. We're gambling with students' futures because of our limited time and resources, and our own internal stress levels. We try to identify the students who have a specific reason for lagging behind, and will embrace learning once that issue is corrected. Sometimes we're right, and it's a good feeling. Sometimes we're wrong, and it's a double blow: we not only failed to help the student that we gambled on, but we may have missed the student the next door over that had the "fixable" issue. It's crass to call the work we did with the first student a "waste," but it's hard to see how it isn't clearly a losing situation.

[Otohiko]

I actually have a lot of admiration for the teachers who are motivated enough to be involved with the students, witty enough to keep us interested, and cool enough to make us want to do their work.

I think it gets harder the longer you've been doing it. I mean, hey, this is only the beginning of my first year. I'm sure new teachers are a lot more "lets fix everyone, no matter what it takes" before reality sinks in. Not that it takes long for it to happen.

Most of my more involved teachers (and later profs) were over 60, sometimes past retirement age. Sure they weren't naive enough for "fix everyone", but they had a way with pretty much all students.

I hate to offend anyone, but I think the only reality in "reality sinking in" is that the person in question has probably picked a wrong career and either doesn't have the personality to be a teacher, or isn't sufficiently prepared to be a teacher (and I should note, I see many of the problems stemming no less from the teacher education system than the school system itself). People like to blame everything on students, but to me it's often been similar to everyone's favorite blaming violence on video games - it's not the kids most of the time, it's shitty parents and shitty teachers. As I said, I'm also a part-time teacher, teacher-in-training and future teacher-trainer, and yup - I say most of the time the problem is us, not the kids.

[JaddziaDax]

kids can tell which teacher they can get away with doing crap in the room... and which ones they cant, they can tell whose buttons they can push and whose they cant. and if they can't tell right away they will learn from the older students who have been around long enough to push their buttons and know.

All of my hs teachers were drastically different...

For example one teacher I had: he would walk in to the room and thats all it took for the class to settle down and pay attention. I was wide awake at 8am (my first class of the day) listening to what he had to say cause he made the subject interesting (and well I wasn't really all that interested in English) and had a presence that made me want to pay attention and learn... it was in the way he carried himself and his attitude..

Another teacher (same year by the way) however would make me pass out in one of my favorite subjects (Science), he made it so dull and boring that there was really no point in staying awake when I could just do the work myself.. I would literally sleep in his class, and his class was right before lunch... Students were always passing out in that class..

Other classes the students would goof off and just do whatever because the teacher would let them get away with it, or they just didn't have the presence to demand attention.

[CodeZTM]

kids can tell which teacher they can get away with doing crap in the room... and which ones they cant, they can tell whose buttons they can push and whose they cant. and if they can't tell right away they will learn from the older students who have been around long enough to push their buttons and know.

All of my hs teachers were drastically different...

For example one teacher I had: he would walk in to the room and thats all it took for the class to settle down and pay attention. I was wide awake at 8am (my first class of the day) listening to what he had to say cause he made the subject interesting (and well I wasn't really all that interested in English) and had a presence that made me want to pay attention and learn... it was in the way he carried himself and his attitude..

Another teacher (same year by the way) however would make me pass out in one of my favorite subjects (Science), he made it so dull and boring that there was really no point in staying awake when I could just do the work myself.. I would literally sleep in his class, and his class was right before lunch... Students were always passing out in that class..

Other classes the students would goof off and just do whatever because the teacher would let them get away with it, or they just didn't have the presence to demand attention.

ZOMG. X2 That is this year for me. X_X

My AP Chemistry class is so boring that I frequenly use it for reading, sleeping or doodling time. I loved Chemistry last year, but this year it's just ridiculous. He speaks in a monotonous voice, reading straight from the book, doing little math equations here and there. Zero emotion. Zero dedication. Zero assistance during breaks/after school. We basically fend for ourselves and pray we pass our exam at the end of the year. X_X

However, my Pre-Calculus teacher works magic. He commands the room with a sense of sarcastic humor and intergrates with the students quite well. We have several inside jokes and humorous rantings that have gone on to make some of our senior class mottos/flowers/speaker speeches.

I hate to offend anyone, but I think the only reality in "reality sinking in" is that the person in question has probably picked a wrong career and either doesn't have the personality to be a teacher, or isn't sufficiently prepared to be a teacher (and I should note, I see many of the problems stemming no less from the teacher education system than the school system itself). People like to blame everything on students, but to me it's often been similar to everyone's favorite blaming violence on video games - it's not the kids most of the time, it's shitty parents and shitty teachers. As I said, I'm also a part-time teacher, teacher-in-training and future teacher-trainer, and yup - I say most of the time the problem is us, not the kids.

Agreed totally. I thought for a long time about being an educator (still want to be, personally), and I've always thought about how my teachers act and how I want them to act. It's not my fault that my AP Chem teacher talks/teachers like he does, and that puts us to sleep by not doing anything productive or provocative. It's also not my fault that my Pre-Cal teacher is amazing, giving me all the resources and guides that I need to succeed (though it is a nice plus ^_^).

I agree with you about the fact there are people who just aren't suited for academic work. Unfortunately, looks can be deceiving, especially if a student has a specific learning disability that could be overcome if identified, or is just really shy/lacks the confidence to speak out when he or she needs help or doesn't understand.

I have to agree, for the most part. During the freshmen/sophomore years of one of my best friends, he was the "type" that wasn't supposed to fit in with the academic world. He never studied, and looked like he was going to fail. Then, he did a 360 in his junior year, and got dedicated after he met the girl of his dreams. He wanted to be able to support her after school, and go to college. He's now in the top 20 of my class. So, yeah, looks can be very deciving.

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Another intersting way to look at things is the geography and majority race as well as the culture of the students of and in the schools. I'm feeling a big difference in academia from you guys as well as from me.

It seems to me (forgive the pitiful sterotyping here), that schools with overpopulation and low funding seems to be lacking in educational opportunities. We also see a more "dedicated" student in the Eastern part of the world than the western part of the world.

Culture also seems to play an important role. (Again, please forgive the pitiful stereotyping) People of asian descent seem to be much more dedicated students than let's say the local rednecks here in my school. One of my good friends was born in Asia (moved to America when he was 2ish), and moved here, and he's top of our class with highly dedicated studying habits that I'm dying to learn.

The Solution?

I think that a student should be allowed to take classes in high school that directly coorelates with their future career. Those who don't have a career can take a random assortment of classes, in order to find out what kind of carrer they might like. Right now, I could care less about certain classes that have no point in me taking. X_X But I have to have them in order to graduate, so I'm forced.

Plus, I think all schools should offer students one hour or one half hour for studying. Even if it extends the school day, I think it would be pretty beneficial. Or at least offer a zero hour program for those who would like to come in before schools starts in order to have acess to a quite study environment.

But that's just me.

[Otohiko]

Culture also seems to play an important role. (Again, please forgive the pitiful stereotyping) People of asian descent seem to be much more dedicated students than let's say the local rednecks here in my school. One of my good friends was born in Asia (moved to America when he was 2ish), and moved here, and he's top of our class with highly dedicated studying habits that I'm dying to learn.

You know, it IS a cultural thing, but I have to say in many cases it's also a micro-cultural thing more than broader cultural levels. For example I've hardly seen students here that were as bright and interesting as some students I knew in Russia - but I also knew far worse students in Russia than the worst students I've seen here. The difference was usually upbringing - the very tight, self-defined intellegentsia in Russia (and Eastern Europe generally) has tended to produce excellent students, not so much because of the larger culture but because of this smaller social circle. I (along with many of my friends) was raised in an urban environment among intellectuals (who, in Russia, are usually extremely poor). I had classmates that were raised among the "New Russian" nouveau-riche class and had very rich families, and lived in the same exact area as me, but were nowhere near as smart or enthusiastic - because the values of their social circle probably didn't encourage this as much. And then there's also kids who were raised among village drunks, and despite being as Russian as me (and perhaps more so) - as students, they had absolutely nothing in common with me.

In this case, I think the biggest difference is the upbringing of the student - which to the largest extent is the family's role. And I don't think this has anything to do with financial resources, whatever one may say. I was raised in absolute poverty, but I ended up being a good student because my family raised me to value learning and intellectuality, and gave me a major head-start on school. And as much as I'd like to, I certainly can't say I'm unique in that. Far from!

[krzT]

I think that a student should be allowed to take classes in high school that directly coorelates with their future career. Those who don't have a career can take a random assortment of classes, in order to find out what kind of carrer they might like. Right now, I could care less about certain classes that have no point in me taking. X_X But I have to have them in order to graduate, so I'm forced.

Honestly, that's what college is for, and it's something I don't really believe most high schoolers are ready for. You seem like a bright kid who looks out for his future, but even as a senior at TJHSST (which is public btw...not private like you mentioned before ^^; ), I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to study or what I was even thinking about majoring in in college. Luckily, I managed to get into a huge school like Cornell, where the university motto "Any student, any study" really rings true, but I didn't even settle down in a major until my sophomore year.

High school, theoretical, should be preparing students for the responsibilities they'll need at the university level. This is theoretically of course, and it doesn't necessarily follow through all the time. But there is a very good reason why introductory biology or English is forced into a curriculum, regardless of whether or not the student is interested in continuing their education in those fields. I, for one, was so ridiculously happy to be done with my science courses once hitting college (thank the Lord for AP credit ), but I don't at all regret having to take intro physics, chemistry, or calculus. These courses may not be interesting all the time (or ever for that matter), but I HIGHLY doubt that you wouldn't draw any sort of lesson from them. They are pretty necessary in you functioning in society as a knowledgeable adult. I have to admit, that if biology weren't required in high school, I never would have taken it. But it allows me to know more about what's going on, current events-wise, and actually make conversation with others without sounding like a bumbling idiot. Same goes for literature and language courses. Your mind will be enriched with what you learn in school, whether you hate your teacher or not.

That's not to say that there aren't horrible/unmotivated teachers/professors though. Trust me...I've had my share of those >_>

I think overall, "good" education requires such a delicate balance of so many things (good teachers, motivated students, encouraging family environments, etc) and it's so hard to achieve that balance, so it becomes a frustrating process for everyone involved.

[Otohiko]

On that subject, what I think is really needed is a balance. In high school, I think there should be both a certain level of required choices and a degree of freedom to choose your subjects.

For one, I liked doing lots of things, but by grade 12 I was certainly set on going into humanities. If they made me take maths and sciences in grade 12, I would be really screwed. I would be worse off without math in grade 9 or 10, of course. And being able to take 3 English classes in grade 12 instead of maths certainly set me up for doing an arts/humanities degree in college - math would be a waste for me at that point. I did take finite because I was required to choose at least one math course on that level to graduate, and did well, but I'm skeptical whether that really was even neccesary. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that.

So, I lean more towards choice in that. For kids who don't know what they want, well, the fact that you have take something is enough. I'm sure most would choose fairly 'mainstream' subjects anyway if they weren't sure. I think in grade 9 and 10, mandatory courses should be in the majority. By grade 11-12, the school system has a high probability of screwing some talented students out of college. Which is why I think it needs to pull back with mandatory subjects a bit.

I see what you mean there with "not regretting" KrzT, but well...
Back when I was going through orientation as a TA last year, they stressed one point: "NEVER tell students 'oh, grades are not important, it's what you learn that matters!' Grades are IMPORTANT.'"
I've never cared for grades in a competitive sense, but for me - and not just me - grades are really a matter of financial survival. I would never be able to go to college if I graduated with less than an A-, period. That actually applies to a lot of kids nowadays, unfortunately. To me, hard vs. easy courses, in a lot of cases, are simply mismatches between student abilities/needs and what they're getting from the class/teacher. And if a mismatch like that results in a deserving candidate for college doing worse than they should be - well, that's really a failure for the system. Which is why I think the system should pull back as far as possible by the time students get to their last year of HS, and let those who know what they're doing do their best, while those who don't can simply roll with the obvious.

I seriously admire people who do/like math by the way.
Math was permanently and irreversibly ruined for me by an absolutely horrible teacher I had. I'm still very good at basic math, but my interest in anything above that has simply been killed forever. Not even the best math teacher would probably be able to turn me back onto math nowadays... not that they have to, of course.

[JaddziaDax]

in my (public) highschool we were given more choices as a jr/sr to take courses we wanted even if they were still in a genre... we got choices on what english courses we wanted, but english courses were still required...

of course to get into college one had to take the required courses to get in.


and some colleges still force you to take general ed classes you might not need as well just so they can fill some quotas on student numbers..

[inthesto]

I, for one, was so ridiculously happy to be done with my science courses once hitting college (thank the Lord for AP credit Very Happy), but I don't at all regret having to take intro physics, chemistry, or calculus. These courses may not be interesting all the time (or ever for that matter), but I HIGHLY doubt that you wouldn't draw any sort of lesson from them. They are pretty necessary in you functioning in society as a knowledgeable adult.

I can't agree with that one. I'm not sure I've ever found a use outside the classroom for solving integrals through u-substitution, knowing Kreb's cycle by heart, or knowing the difference between the different types of chemical bonds. Of course, make note that I'm not planning in pursuing a career in any of those fields.

The way I figure it, those courses aren't really there to drill knowledge into your brain for future use so much as test and strain your mental capabilities. A physicist doesn't give a crap about cellular respiration, but being forced to learn it helps you to figure out the underlying process beneath each step, which could ultimately be more helpful when trying to figure out friction or whatever it is those people do. And of course nobody actually cares about the green light in The Great Gatsby, but writing an essay on it helps you learn how to read between the lines of a literary work beyond "society sux lol".

At least, that's what makes sense in my don't-even-bother-to-learn-the-formulas mind.

Math was permanently and irreversibly ruined for me by an absolutely horrible teacher I had.

Same with myself and biology. And now that I'm a psychology student, I'm really regretting letting one individual so adversely affect my academic career, when it's so damn relevant to my field of study.

If only I had been a soccer player. :roll:

[CodeZTM]

Meh.

At my high school, we have the horrible class choices. We have four required classes. Math, science, history and english. WE have a choice between the grade level class or the AP version of that class. We also have 5 classes that are required to take before we can graduate. These are: PE, Art, Health, Driver's Education, and Speech.

We have 7 classes per day, with strict guidelines on what we can take and where we can take it.

So that leaves three classes open for us to choose. But, one-two of those have to be one of those five required classes each year.

So that's left me the honor of taking a digital media class for my 7th class each year, and this year taking yearbook/journalism, as I've already gotten my five required out of hte way.

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As for the college is for career, high school prepares you for it.. . I think that's ridiculous.

i don't know about you guys, but my middle school expierence was AWFUL. We learned absolutely nothing new. That's four wasted years. Why not turn those into the technical "high school" years, teaching students how to learn.

I personally believe that student would do much better. This way, they can work towards their carreer, or take classes that would teach them work-environment techniques if they don't plan on attending college.

I mean, I've been taking enough AP & College classes so that I can actually enroll as a college Sophomore. I think that more students could accomplish more in their lives and possible get into better colleges.

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I'd also like to point out that high school counselors are another important aspect of gettting into higher education.

My school's counselor got fired last year after an incident where a college senior was denied a scholarship (he didn't have any money coming from family, and his academics were the only way to get any college time) after our counselor "forgot" to ship out his scholarship information to the proper school. Not to mention the fact that many students didn't even know their GPA until after they had graduated. Thus, many students got screwed out of scholarships.

This year, we have an amazing counselor who is very helpful. He's pointed out to me personally 7 scholarships, which I got 5 of them. These each ranged from 500 to 1000 dollars of money straight in my pocket.

^_^

Just another random viewpoint.

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Math was permanently and irreversibly ruined for me by an absolutely horrible teacher I had.

Me and my Anatomy, AP Government and AP Chemistry classes. They were and are AWFUL!