American children continue to fall behind in education

[Otohiko]

Personally, I can see where jasper is coming from - but I guess my own experience shows something a little different. I went to very above-average but somewhat below-elite middle/high schools, and I always found that teachers, not students, were the crucial element. I did have a lot of stupid classmates who didn't want to learn, but as soon as you hit a category a little bit above that, a brilliant teacher made all the difference. They didn't make a huge difference for the brilliant students - the brilliant students probably don't need teachers very often - but I think outside the top-level schools that choose their students, these are far from the majority, and it's the typical studnet, the problematic and often lazy but actually talented student, that has a ton of potential that could be let out by a great teacher. The most outstanding teachers that I had even managed to actually the bad students to perform.

There are a lot of awful teachers even in really good schools. It's a fact of life, of course, that good schools often attract good teachers. But in fact my impression is that the average population anywhere, anytime, is not brilliant, and the best teachers are best spent on the somewhat-maybe students and not the brightest, self-motivated kids.

Maybe I'm just rambling. For one though, I have to confess: all I have achieved in school is thanks to outstanding teachers and equally outstanding parents. I certainly have a few natural talents, but I wouldn't be bothered to develop them if it weren't for absolutely brilliant, motivating teachers that helped along the way. Honestly, my educational experience has been awesome thanks to them. Students, for me, were most frequently a problem. I will admit that often studying next to average and below-average students gave me a bit of extra confidence/arrogance, but other students have unfortunately rarely been a source of anything but distraction and frustration for me personally... even if I actually gained a great deal of sympathy for them - and I don't mean that in any condescending way. It's more a matter of realizing that there's really ways to engage students better and get them a bit more self-motivated and self-reflexive, and thereby help them help themselves. I don't know what to say about American education - in the Canadian system, my experience has been that for most teachers, making students learn is either not important or is a matter of enforcing discipline. In other words, what I saw is either "fine, learn if you want to" or "fine, learn this if you want to, and if you don't want to you fail". But I haven't seen as much of an effort to make students want to learn, at least definitely when we're talking below college level and above primary school level (which I think is the most key period). For one, that's my motivation for getting on a pretty direct path to a teaching career (actually to be more specific, my aim is to get to a teacher education career even).

[Kionon]

Mandatory Education fails.

I'm actually qualified to speak on this: I'm a teacher!

It's hard to get students who don't want to participate do anything, and the willing rarely need your help. It's a very odd cmbination.

I have found in Korea the situation is the same in the states. Those who are "learners" will remain learners all their lives (like me). Those that are not, it doesn't seem like I can "save." I like to think I'm a caring instructor, but just trying to "save" one child that doesn't want to learn would be a full time job. We have neither the resources nor the time nor the stamina to "save" the several students in each class that just don't care. I have between 7 and 11 periods to teach, depending on the day and the semester. The number of students needing constant attention would require an army of teachers.

There simply aren't enough of us, and in America, I would be making even less money than I am making here.

[JaddziaDax]

wow people are like taking this topic seriously O.o

and homework should die

[CodeZTM]

Mandatory Education fails & other stuff

Agreed. My mother and grandfather are both educators and have told me the same thing. From a tutor's standpoint, I can see it too. Unless a student has will and a drive to do something on their own, then they are never going to want to do it. It's pointless for educators to have to force it down our throats for 12 years.

Teachers & Their Qualities

I agree full-heartedly. Here in the south (well, in my part of the south anyway), education isn't necesarrily a necissity. Most teachers have just basically "given up", and just throw out worksheets or notes on the board and give us tests every few weeks. But, my AP classes and honor classes have been nothing short of a blessing with teachers. They are dedicated, hard working idividuals who strive to make us succeed in the real world. Then, there are the regular classes with teachers that don't give a rat's ass. I can't stand those. The teachers just stand in the back while we do worksheets/take notes off board, and we don't actually "learn" anything, per say. We just memorize junk for the test, then forget it a week later. My AP classes, on the other hand, has the teachers that are capable of letting us learn things that we may possibly use in college/later life.

So, yeah, a teacher is also a crucial element in the learning process.

Private VS. Public Schooling

Meh. We have a private academy about 30 minutes away from our high school, and I have a good friend that moved to my school from a private school. From what I've seen and heard, I'd rather stay in public schools. Not to say that private schooling is a bad thing, but it seems like it's always about what the investors want, and not what the students want. For example, our "local" private school gets a lot of money from the "uppercrust" of my state. This "uppercrust" has pretty conservative christian views (which there is nothing wrong with!), so they have banned any and all scientific classes that contradict anything from any religion, as well as teaching about historic religions of the past. They also do not allow any contact sports, or extra-curricular activities, saying that they stray away from the academic process. My friend reported a similar situation in Colarado and in Michigan.

Personally, I think that schools that have closed minds are going to be the biggest downfall of education. I think it is important to learn about other religious beliefs, be involved in sporting activities that teach important values (though I wouldn't ^_^) , and getting involved in extra-curricular activites, which I think is a blessing to the academic process. They work to help assist students by teaching them importnat values they will need in the workforce/college atmosphere.

As for the atmosphere of the buliding, I would have to agree with ya. My school is n't exactly rich, so we suffer from lack of classrooms. My 7th hour class migrates every day, which is really annoying. Not to mention that our computer lab (not EAST lab) is badly outdated. X_X

[inthesto]

Learning environment makes a huge difference

I'm gonna have to confirm that one with my own experience.

Although my high school school isn't listed in the list jasper posted, I'm told it's pretty high profile even when compared to private schools. Grades are pretty hyped up to the point where students will switch out of classes to maintain a 4.0 GPA, and the place gets pretty riled up at certain times of the year when certain notorious deadlines are coming. Since I was in the honors classes for every subject (but not the SUPER-honors classes :roll: ), I saw a lot of it firsthand and reacted pretty strongly. I ended up devoting only half as much to my studies as the other nutjobs just so I could prove I was smarter by working half as hard and doing twice as well. Right effect, wrong reason, I guess.

For one though, I have to confess: all I have achieved in school is thanks to outstanding teachers and equally outstanding parents.

This is likely the other half of it. Having asian parents who would wring your neck at the sign of a C helps keeping you motivated. I'm also pretty sure that it's no coincedence that some of my best teachers were the ones who taught me philosophy, and my two worst ones taught me math and biology, two subjects I haven't touched since finishing high school (though I'm slightly bitter about the latter one). I actually have a lot of admiration for the teachers who are motivated enough to be involved with the students, witty enough to keep us interested, and cool enough to make us want to do their work.

On the flip side of the coin, though, some people just inherently aren't born for the academic environment. Unfortunately, those people are usually raked over the coals for being dysfunctional in an environment they're not cut out for, and society tells us their jobs are pretty disposable anyway. In fact, I think this may be why a glamor culture that doesn't emphasize content so much as looks may be so pervasive in American culture today, but that's another story all together.

[Kionon]

I actually have a lot of admiration for the teachers who are motivated enough to be involved with the students, witty enough to keep us interested, and cool enough to make us want to do their work.

I think it gets harder the longer you've been doing it. I mean, hey, this is only the beginning of my first year. I'm sure new teachers are a lot more "lets fix everyone, no matter what it takes" before reality sinks in. Not that it takes long for it to happen.

I agree with you about the fact there are people who just aren't suited for academic work. Unfortunately, looks can be deceiving, especially if a student has a specific learning disability that could be overcome if identified, or is just really shy/lacks the confidence to speak out when he or she needs help or doesn't understand.

I hate to say this, but it's a crapshoot. We're gambling with students' futures because of our limited time and resources, and our own internal stress levels. We try to identify the students who have a specific reason for lagging behind, and will embrace learning once that issue is corrected. Sometimes we're right, and it's a good feeling. Sometimes we're wrong, and it's a double blow: we not only failed to help the student that we gambled on, but we may have missed the student the next door over that had the "fixable" issue. It's crass to call the work we did with the first student a "waste," but it's hard to see how it isn't clearly a losing situation.

[Otohiko]

I actually have a lot of admiration for the teachers who are motivated enough to be involved with the students, witty enough to keep us interested, and cool enough to make us want to do their work.

I think it gets harder the longer you've been doing it. I mean, hey, this is only the beginning of my first year. I'm sure new teachers are a lot more "lets fix everyone, no matter what it takes" before reality sinks in. Not that it takes long for it to happen.

Most of my more involved teachers (and later profs) were over 60, sometimes past retirement age. Sure they weren't naive enough for "fix everyone", but they had a way with pretty much all students.

I hate to offend anyone, but I think the only reality in "reality sinking in" is that the person in question has probably picked a wrong career and either doesn't have the personality to be a teacher, or isn't sufficiently prepared to be a teacher (and I should note, I see many of the problems stemming no less from the teacher education system than the school system itself). People like to blame everything on students, but to me it's often been similar to everyone's favorite blaming violence on video games - it's not the kids most of the time, it's shitty parents and shitty teachers. As I said, I'm also a part-time teacher, teacher-in-training and future teacher-trainer, and yup - I say most of the time the problem is us, not the kids.

[JaddziaDax]

kids can tell which teacher they can get away with doing crap in the room... and which ones they cant, they can tell whose buttons they can push and whose they cant. and if they can't tell right away they will learn from the older students who have been around long enough to push their buttons and know.

All of my hs teachers were drastically different...

For example one teacher I had: he would walk in to the room and thats all it took for the class to settle down and pay attention. I was wide awake at 8am (my first class of the day) listening to what he had to say cause he made the subject interesting (and well I wasn't really all that interested in English) and had a presence that made me want to pay attention and learn... it was in the way he carried himself and his attitude..

Another teacher (same year by the way) however would make me pass out in one of my favorite subjects (Science), he made it so dull and boring that there was really no point in staying awake when I could just do the work myself.. I would literally sleep in his class, and his class was right before lunch... Students were always passing out in that class..

Other classes the students would goof off and just do whatever because the teacher would let them get away with it, or they just didn't have the presence to demand attention.

[CodeZTM]

kids can tell which teacher they can get away with doing crap in the room... and which ones they cant, they can tell whose buttons they can push and whose they cant. and if they can't tell right away they will learn from the older students who have been around long enough to push their buttons and know.

All of my hs teachers were drastically different...

For example one teacher I had: he would walk in to the room and thats all it took for the class to settle down and pay attention. I was wide awake at 8am (my first class of the day) listening to what he had to say cause he made the subject interesting (and well I wasn't really all that interested in English) and had a presence that made me want to pay attention and learn... it was in the way he carried himself and his attitude..

Another teacher (same year by the way) however would make me pass out in one of my favorite subjects (Science), he made it so dull and boring that there was really no point in staying awake when I could just do the work myself.. I would literally sleep in his class, and his class was right before lunch... Students were always passing out in that class..

Other classes the students would goof off and just do whatever because the teacher would let them get away with it, or they just didn't have the presence to demand attention.

ZOMG. X2 That is this year for me. X_X

My AP Chemistry class is so boring that I frequenly use it for reading, sleeping or doodling time. I loved Chemistry last year, but this year it's just ridiculous. He speaks in a monotonous voice, reading straight from the book, doing little math equations here and there. Zero emotion. Zero dedication. Zero assistance during breaks/after school. We basically fend for ourselves and pray we pass our exam at the end of the year. X_X

However, my Pre-Calculus teacher works magic. He commands the room with a sense of sarcastic humor and intergrates with the students quite well. We have several inside jokes and humorous rantings that have gone on to make some of our senior class mottos/flowers/speaker speeches.

I hate to offend anyone, but I think the only reality in "reality sinking in" is that the person in question has probably picked a wrong career and either doesn't have the personality to be a teacher, or isn't sufficiently prepared to be a teacher (and I should note, I see many of the problems stemming no less from the teacher education system than the school system itself). People like to blame everything on students, but to me it's often been similar to everyone's favorite blaming violence on video games - it's not the kids most of the time, it's shitty parents and shitty teachers. As I said, I'm also a part-time teacher, teacher-in-training and future teacher-trainer, and yup - I say most of the time the problem is us, not the kids.

Agreed totally. I thought for a long time about being an educator (still want to be, personally), and I've always thought about how my teachers act and how I want them to act. It's not my fault that my AP Chem teacher talks/teachers like he does, and that puts us to sleep by not doing anything productive or provocative. It's also not my fault that my Pre-Cal teacher is amazing, giving me all the resources and guides that I need to succeed (though it is a nice plus ^_^).

I agree with you about the fact there are people who just aren't suited for academic work. Unfortunately, looks can be deceiving, especially if a student has a specific learning disability that could be overcome if identified, or is just really shy/lacks the confidence to speak out when he or she needs help or doesn't understand.

I have to agree, for the most part. During the freshmen/sophomore years of one of my best friends, he was the "type" that wasn't supposed to fit in with the academic world. He never studied, and looked like he was going to fail. Then, he did a 360 in his junior year, and got dedicated after he met the girl of his dreams. He wanted to be able to support her after school, and go to college. He's now in the top 20 of my class. So, yeah, looks can be very deciving.

*************************

Another intersting way to look at things is the geography and majority race as well as the culture of the students of and in the schools. I'm feeling a big difference in academia from you guys as well as from me.

It seems to me (forgive the pitiful sterotyping here), that schools with overpopulation and low funding seems to be lacking in educational opportunities. We also see a more "dedicated" student in the Eastern part of the world than the western part of the world.

Culture also seems to play an important role. (Again, please forgive the pitiful stereotyping) People of asian descent seem to be much more dedicated students than let's say the local rednecks here in my school. One of my good friends was born in Asia (moved to America when he was 2ish), and moved here, and he's top of our class with highly dedicated studying habits that I'm dying to learn.

The Solution?

I think that a student should be allowed to take classes in high school that directly coorelates with their future career. Those who don't have a career can take a random assortment of classes, in order to find out what kind of carrer they might like. Right now, I could care less about certain classes that have no point in me taking. X_X But I have to have them in order to graduate, so I'm forced.

Plus, I think all schools should offer students one hour or one half hour for studying. Even if it extends the school day, I think it would be pretty beneficial. Or at least offer a zero hour program for those who would like to come in before schools starts in order to have acess to a quite study environment.

But that's just me.

[Otohiko]

Culture also seems to play an important role. (Again, please forgive the pitiful stereotyping) People of asian descent seem to be much more dedicated students than let's say the local rednecks here in my school. One of my good friends was born in Asia (moved to America when he was 2ish), and moved here, and he's top of our class with highly dedicated studying habits that I'm dying to learn.

You know, it IS a cultural thing, but I have to say in many cases it's also a micro-cultural thing more than broader cultural levels. For example I've hardly seen students here that were as bright and interesting as some students I knew in Russia - but I also knew far worse students in Russia than the worst students I've seen here. The difference was usually upbringing - the very tight, self-defined intellegentsia in Russia (and Eastern Europe generally) has tended to produce excellent students, not so much because of the larger culture but because of this smaller social circle. I (along with many of my friends) was raised in an urban environment among intellectuals (who, in Russia, are usually extremely poor). I had classmates that were raised among the "New Russian" nouveau-riche class and had very rich families, and lived in the same exact area as me, but were nowhere near as smart or enthusiastic - because the values of their social circle probably didn't encourage this as much. And then there's also kids who were raised among village drunks, and despite being as Russian as me (and perhaps more so) - as students, they had absolutely nothing in common with me.

In this case, I think the biggest difference is the upbringing of the student - which to the largest extent is the family's role. And I don't think this has anything to do with financial resources, whatever one may say. I was raised in absolute poverty, but I ended up being a good student because my family raised me to value learning and intellectuality, and gave me a major head-start on school. And as much as I'd like to, I certainly can't say I'm unique in that. Far from!