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Orwell · Post by **Orwell** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:58 pm

I like the Torah over the bible, so Jewish is close enough for me. I personally hate to see people define themselves by a religion or sect of belief of any kind, not just the war mongering ones. The base ideals are what should be focused on, not, god said all life is sacred, no abortions, nor any of the other shit that has been used to justify millions upon millions of dead. Do not steal, do not lie, "And do not say, I will study when I have leisure; for perhaps you will not have leisure", be industrious and live not in a state of gluttony and excessively decadent wealth. So on and so forth.

SilversLightning · Post by **SilversLightning** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:56 pm

But whatever the Torah tells you the Pharaoh didn't do it!

HE WAS FRAMED I TELL YOU!!!! FRAMED!!!!!!!!

Oh wait, wrong Pharaoh.....

guy07 · Post by **guy07** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:23 am

I don't really believe there is a god ... but i DO understand how important religion is to keeping the world in order. The concept of a 'hell' adds to the prevention of people committing 'sin' (ya know, illegal stuff) and essentially makes people easier to manipulate or control, which can be a good or bad thing. And the concept of doing good things and people going to heaven makes people want to help others. Or you can use this to scare the piss out of people and make them do whatever you want.

I guess i'm roman catholic ...well, at least my parents are, and i have to go to church as long as i live at home (which i'm not now but i have to move back soon ..). But i'm sure i'll do what most do when they turn 50 and go "zomg, i'm gona die soon ... if there's a heave, i wana go there, time for church!" ...i guess there COULD be a god ...but i don't think there is.
[/rant]

SilversLightning · Post by **SilversLightning** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:38 am

Yeah I unfortunately have to agree that religions have that dark side of being able to manipulate and control people (especially if you are the 'leader' and you want them to do something for you, kinda like an evil empire) because apparently human nature is not something that is very nice to other humans.

So yeah they do have this 'hell' to scare people straight, otherwise they would be killing each other just for the hell of it. And there wouldn't be a 'civilization' but just total and utter chaos.

Not that people are very civilized in the first place...but rules given by a religion or a government seems to help if it's not to overbearing. But there are the extremes where a leader will abuse their power and use that insistute to control the world. Religion unfortunately has that possibility.

Krisqo · Post by **Krisqo** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:06 pm

DivineQueenYeiweh wrote: Not that people are very civilized in the first place...but rules given by a religion or a government seems to help if it's not to overbearing. But there are the extremes where a leader will abuse their power and use that insistute to control the world. Religion unfortunately has that possibility.

Hasn't it already started controlling the world? Look at radical Islamic Muslims. Not to say the religion tells them to blow themselves up and kill hundreds of people, but they have taken the religion and created a fear over most of the world. And the one tactic many institutions use to control large groups of people IS fear.

In a way... it reminds me of the crusades... just with the Muslims being the aggressors and not the Christians.

Shazzy · Post by **Shazzy** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:19 pm

Secular governments are also used to control people. Spouses abuse their influence against each other. Teachers vent their frustrations on their students. Parents abuse their kids (and some kids abuse their parents). It's power that's the issue. Power + corruption = problems.

Kalium · Post by **Kalium** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:22 pm

I get to vote for my government. I don't get to vote for who has the religious power.

Krisqo · Post by **Krisqo** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:42 pm

Shazzy wrote:Secular governments are also used to control people. Spouses abuse their influence against each other. Teachers vent their frustrations on their students. Parents abuse their kids (and some kids abuse their parents). It's power that's the issue. Power + corruption = problems.

True... and as long as humans have free will, there will ALWAYS be corruption in one way or another. I doubt even the Washington Administration was free of corruption. Even the Vatican is not free of corruption. Look at Vatican II. Why would Pope Paul VI get a bunch of non Christians to help re-write the mass? Take it one step farther. Pope John XXIII did not start Vatican II in order to change the mass.

Then there's Pope John Paul I, the thirty Day pope. There's a conspiracy that he was assassinated BECAUSE he was going to reveal what happened at Vatican II.

Kalium wrote:I get to vote for my government. I don't get to vote for who has the religious power.

Do we really vote for who we want? Remember the 2000 election? Al Gore got the most votes, but Bush won the Electoral College. As long at the EC is in place, we have as much control over the government as we do religious clergy and religious governments.

wurpess · Post by **wurpess** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:20 pm

And this is why I don't believe in organized religion. You get too many people in one place for a belief, then they all get talking, and then egos flare, the yahoos come out, and suddenly you have mass murder supposedly in the name of this belief, all because those people believed in something else. Which completely goes against what the original message of the belief system was. And, at least with Christianity, I thought the idea was the spread the word of God and live with humility, understanding and compassion. Not obnoxiously shove your beliefs down someone's throat and beat down anyone (either physically or verbally) who refuses to accept it. Or use it as a convenient tool to get what you want. People just have it all wrong. I agree with the messages of religion. I just don't agree with what people have done with it. But its kinda what's been going on all throughout the bible. People take the gifts that God gives them and trash them. Because that's human nature.

Krisqo · Post by **Krisqo** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:39 pm

wurpess wrote:And this is why I don't believe in organized religion. You get too many people in one place for a belief, then they all get talking, and then egos flare, the yahoos come out, and suddenly you have mass murder supposedly in the name of this belief, all because those people believed in something else. Which completely goes against what the original message of the belief system was. And, at least with Christianity, I thought the idea was the spread the word of God and live with humility, understanding and compassion. Not obnoxiously shove your beliefs down someone's throat and beat down anyone (either physically or verbally) who refuses to accept it. Or use it as a convenient tool to get what you want. People just have it all wrong. I agree with the messages of religion. I just don't agree with what people have done with it. But its kinda what's been going on all throughout the bible. People take the gifts that God gives them and trash them. Because that's human nature.

True. But that's why God gave us free will. Otherwise we would be puppets controlled by some omnipotent being.

But I would not say that Christianity is shoving shit down people's throats. Hell... how often do you hear ANYTHING about Benedict XVI? He's done NOTHING since he was 'elected' Pope. In fact, don't expect him to do anything because he is a transitional Pope while they find a more suitable pontificate to replace him when he dies in a few years.