Source Footage Ethics Symposium - I'm blowing your mind!

[BasharOfTheAges]

Yea. This is a bit of a stretch and I’d prefer if people didn’t take the easy way out by arguing against this point, when there are many valid points above.

I agree to a point... but please, pick apart something with more legitimacy behind it than something i threw in at the last moment.

[JaddziaDax]

when i watch a fansub that i really like i want it to get licenced and come out in america that way i can buy the DVDs.... though seriously i wish more people were like me.

[Gods Dark Angel]

You say your only purpose was for people to try and find flaws with your reasoning... AKA stir up some shit. I don't see fansubs/RAW's unethical in any sense. Do you not under stand that by sharing the fansubs/other illegally acquired material it spreads the material. It gets it out there to a larger base of people. Some of those people... like me buy those DVD's when they get released to. Not because of ethics, because the illegaly d/l'ed material got my interest. And is readily accessible.

Also I don't understand your second hand argument one bit... I believe the argument is to establish your big point that the creators are not being compensated, but THATS HOW IT IS FOR EVERYTHING SOME ONE RESELLS. If I go to the store and buy some milk. Do the farmers receive any of my money? No They already sold they're product and the store receives all my money. Only if you buy an anime DVD straight from the publishers are your profits going to the "creators". The reason people are seeing fansubs is because with the Internet today. It is increasingly easier to d/l or get series for free. Hell I've done it. When people d/l fansubs they take shortcuts to get there source because its easy they don't think about the ethics or the creators in their situations. Generally speaking...

Does that make any sense?

[Kalium]

Fansubs/RAWs: We all seem to hold that it is unethical to use fansubs or other downloaded footage in the creation of AMVs. It’s also illegal (whether or not the series is licensed by the way). Nobody is arguing this fact. The reasoning behind this (as I have to come garner from the discussion here in the last few years) is because using fansubs and other downloaded material does not support the creators. If there’s another reason, please inform me, because the rest of my post is centered around this key assumption.

Videos made from fansubs also tend to look like utter shit. RAWs tend to be somewhat better, but still worse than DVDs.

Bootlegs: With bootlegs, you have the footage from a DVD and yet hit the same 2 problems. You have no legal protection (fair use or otherwise) because you don’t actually own the copyrighted media in question, but a facsimile of it. You’re also ethically in the wrong because you’re not supporting the creators.

There's piracy and there's piracy. Fansubs are more or less ethical because no cash is changing hands. Once you throw in commercial pirates, then you're in a blatantly unethical area, and far more illegal.

2nd Hand: Here’s where I start screwing with your mind. Purchasing a used DVD from someone legally transfers ownership of it to you. You know own the media and are legally in the right to watch it and (as many would argue) use it to make a video. [for the sake of simplicity, lets take this as true, so the topic at hand isn’t muddled in all that bullshit] By the same ethical standards as above, though, you are not supporting the creators and are thus in the wrong in an ethical sense. Does this bother you? Find the flaw in the logic as presented.

However, by participating in the secondary market, you drive demand in the primary market. Not everything is completely straightforward here.

Renting: As with buying used, you are not supporting the creators. Now the licensing companies may receive a cut of the rental fees, but refer to the next section for that. Also, by renting you do not have the protection of fair use because you don’t actually own the material. Borrowing also creates the same concerns and raises the same flags.

Licensors recieve a cut, and thus royalties are paid to the original creators.

Buying non R2 DVDs: Now, here comes the stretch. I propose that it is equally unethical to buy region 1 (or any other non 2 region) domestically licensed DVDs for the same reason. The creators are not being compensated. The licensing and dubbing industries are not the creators of what we use in our videos.

False. Very false. When you buy an R1, a certain amount of that money goes to the company that owns the rights in Japan. They're called royalties. Please, get your facts straight before you make bizarre ethical claims based on incorrect facts.

[BasharOfTheAges]

Thinking about it more... i guess i really am calling bullshit on the whole reasoning of "support the industry." Or more aptly, i'm thinking that if that reasoning is the only ethical reasoning behind not talking about fansubs here, then the other methods should be not allowed for the same reasoning.

It all boils down to that. What we are and are not allowed to talk about and why. There's logical falicy afoot and i called bullshit - subconsciously i might add. I honestly just wanted to see what people thought at first. Thinking about it, i guess my subconscious likes calling bullshit.

I guess most of you realized that I would throw that out once you couldn't find logical issues with the statements in the first post. Debate is usually fostered by a sence that "i know he's going to say a bunch of stuff i agree with in theory then prove to me some conclusion i'd disagree with otherwise," so people choke up and automatically dimiss or go on the offensive. It's still something you should really look at. Are my points valid? (you can disregard the last one since it's the only one anyone has responded to anyways) Is my reasoning valid? Can you legitimately debate the topic at hand?

[BasharOfTheAges]

Kalium I knew I could count on you for thought-out intelligent discussion that actually pertained to the question at hand. Kudos to you. You have spurred my interest in further pursuit of knowledge on the topic

[Gods Dark Angel]

Ignorance is Bliss Isn't it...

[BasharOfTheAges]

2nd Hand: Here’s where I start screwing with your mind. Purchasing a used DVD from someone legally transfers ownership of it to you. You know own the media and are legally in the right to watch it and (as many would argue) use it to make a video. [for the sake of simplicity, lets take this as true, so the topic at hand isn’t muddled in all that bullshit] By the same ethical standards as above, though, you are not supporting the creators and are thus in the wrong in an ethical sense. Does this bother you? Find the flaw in the logic as presented.

However, by participating in the secondary market, you drive demand in the primary market. Not everything is completely straightforward here.

As an editor though? Spicifically getting source for a project? [i'm genuinely interested in economic thought; though i find most formal economic instruction very politically biased]

Renting: As with buying used, you are not supporting the creators. Now the licensing companies may receive a cut of the rental fees, but refer to the next section for that. Also, by renting you do not have the protection of fair use because you don’t actually own the material. Borrowing also creates the same concerns and raises the same flags.

Licensors recieve a cut, and thus royalties are paid to the original creators.

Defend borowing then. Also, how does the whole "fair use" mentailty come into play, or was this more of a responce to the etihical concerns of getting the source than using it?

[Kionon]

I only want to address one aspect. You ask about transfer of ownership. You absurdly claim this transference does not constitute supporting the creators. I argue you are wrong. Here's a break up as to why:

1) Person A purchases Macross: DYRL for 7800 yen.
2) Person A watches it, but does not enjoy it enough to keep it.
3) Person A sells it to Person B for 4000 Yen.
4) Person A still paid 7800 yen, but got back 4000 yen.
5) Person A (3800 Yen) + Person B (4000 Yen) = Total Payment (7800 Yen).

Although it is trickle down, only one copy is moving, and no matter how you break it down, the production company, its associates, its seiyuu and animators, as well as the original creators get thier piece. You can repeat Steps 3-5 ad nauseum, even allowing for profit due to rarity of the item over time, and at no point is there a legal or ethical issue present.

[downwithpants]

my stance is along the same lines as kalium's

here's my stance: making amvs, even with DVDs purchased directly from the original artists, carries unethical implications (you redistributed their work without their permission).

using fansubs/raws/bootlegs carries further unethical implications (you're redistributing their work without even recompensing them).

using secondhand, rented, relicensed DVDs is morally different from the aforementioned (you're redistributing their work, though you're recompensing them at a lower rate than buying the DVD).

2nd Hand: Here’s where I start screwing with your mind. Purchasing a used DVD from someone legally transfers ownership of it to you. You know own the media and are legally in the right to watch it and (as many would argue) use it to make a video. [for the sake of simplicity, lets take this as true, so the topic at hand isn’t muddled in all that bullshit] By the same ethical standards as above, though, you are not supporting the creators and are thus in the wrong in an ethical sense. Does this bother you? Find the flaw in the logic as presented.

However, by participating in the secondary market, you drive demand in the primary market. Not everything is completely straightforward here.

As an editor though? Spicifically getting source for a project? [i'm genuinely interested in economic thought; though i find most formal economic instruction very politically biased]

reselling potentially drives up demand for the product by giving the original buyer less hesitation to buy the original work (knowing that she can always resell it if she doesn't like it.)

Defend borowing then. Also, how does the whole "fair use" mentailty come into play, or was this more of a responce to the etihical concerns of getting the source than using it?

borrowing from a friend or say an anime club can give greater satisfaction to the original buyer of the work, knowing that greater utility is being derived from the work they bought, and again driving up demand for the product.

fair use in the legal sense, may hold for anime source but most likely not for music source (except when small snippets of the original audio are used like in amv hell). in the ethical sense, amvs are, as they are currently being used, used in a "fair use" sense. amvs aren't meant to simply redistribute or devalue the original works, but use the original works to provide something extra and worth sharing to them.