Source Footage Ethics Symposium - I'm blowing your mind!

BasharOfTheAges · Post by **BasharOfTheAges** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:49 pm

Spurred on by a recent topic (and a degree of boredom) I decided to dissect the ethical argument for proper source procurement. While a good deal of this is pointing out inherent logical flaws that we all seem to overlook, I doubt I’m taking in the entirety of the argument and I’m posting this to ask for logical flaws in my reasoning. I’m going to insert this next line (although I doubt people will look at it, since I’ll hit a nerve and send them into rant mode) : “I’m not attempting to legitimize illegal procurement of anything, nor am I demonizing anyone who does so; I’m simply examining flaws in the official ethical standards we hold to be true.”

Fansubs/RAWs: We all seem to hold that it is unethical to use fansubs or other downloaded footage in the creation of AMVs. It’s also illegal (whether or not the series is licensed by the way). Nobody is arguing this fact. The reasoning behind this (as I have to come garner from the discussion here in the last few years) is because using fansubs and other downloaded material does not support the creators. If there’s another reason, please inform me, because the rest of my post is centered around this key assumption.

Bootlegs: With bootlegs, you have the footage from a DVD and yet hit the same 2 problems. You have no legal protection (fair use or otherwise) because you don’t actually own the copyrighted media in question, but a facsimile of it. You’re also ethically in the wrong because you’re not supporting the creators.

2nd Hand: Here’s where I start screwing with your mind. Purchasing a used DVD from someone legally transfers ownership of it to you. You know own the media and are legally in the right to watch it and (as many would argue) use it to make a video. [for the sake of simplicity, lets take this as true, so the topic at hand isn’t muddled in all that bullshit] By the same ethical standards as above, though, you are not supporting the creators and are thus in the wrong in an ethical sense. Does this bother you? Find the flaw in the logic as presented.

Renting: As with buying used, you are not supporting the creators. Now the licensing companies may receive a cut of the rental fees, but refer to the next section for that. Also, by renting you do not have the protection of fair use because you don’t actually own the material. Borrowing also creates the same concerns and raises the same flags.

Buying non R2 DVDs: Now, here comes the stretch. I propose that it is equally unethical to buy region 1 (or any other non 2 region) domestically licensed DVDs for the same reason. The creators are not being compensated. The licensing and dubbing industries are not the creators of what we use in our videos.

Yea. This is a bit of a stretch and I’d prefer if people didn’t take the easy way out by arguing against this point, when there are many valid points above.

So, what are the logical concerns with this? Are we all just fooling ourselves? Discuss.

devilmaykickass · Post by **devilmaykickass** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:53 pm

As long as it doesn't look like crap I could honestly care less where you got the footage from.

JaddziaDax · Post by **JaddziaDax** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:19 pm

theres a difference between "supporting the creators" and "supporting the industry"

R1's would fall under the category of the latter... the industry/company/adv/viz/pioneer/4kids/geneon/whothefuckever has baught the rights to distrobute it...

Purge · Post by **Purge** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:55 pm

I see this simply as

Fansubs/bootlegs yeah thats very unethical.

Renting/2nd hand/NONr2dvds thats less unethical then above.

Conclusion:
I think the right ethical thing to do is to just obtain your media legally. Isn't that the crux of the amv source ethics and not whether you specifically choose to support the original creator.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:04 pm

Who could possibly give a shit where you get your footage from? I care about the video I'm watching and its impact on me the viewer, not the hoops the creator jumped through to make it.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:09 pm

Moral ethics only come into play when they are discussed on this board.

I suggest we not talk about them anymore.

x_rex30 · Post by **x_rex30** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:17 pm

Beowulf and Castor Troy are right. Though I care where I get my footage from unless it's hard to obtain.. then I just do what I can then. Before I made my eva videos I was looking for a download for the region2 DVD (oops did I just say that outloud!?) but after a while I like to be as legit as I can in the first place(not so much for music.. wish I could buy single songs online in CD quality), I ended up buying the region 2 verion of the remastered movie. Cost me around 70 bucks.

Zarxrax · Post by **Zarxrax** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:39 pm

Like everyone has said, I honestly don't care where you get your footage. As far as this place is concerned though, you don't talk about it here. Thats the forum rules, and by posting here you agree to it.

If the community looks like a hotbed of piracy, that paints a bad picture of us in the public. The music companies get more agressive, the editing software people start looking this way, maybe the anime companies start disliking amvs.

I'm not aware of any other mainstream site that would allow talk of downloading things illegally, and this site is no exception. If you wanna do it, thats fine, just keep it to yourself.

BasharOfTheAges · Post by **BasharOfTheAges** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:56 pm

The vast majority of your replies seem to suggest that you didn't quite understand what i was getting at with this. Notice that part where i say that i don't care either way where you actually get the source from? I mean that.

I know it's hard to conceive, but i've yet to have a real sence that anythign i postulated was incorrect in theory. That's all that this was about. you're all taking that extra logical leap and assuming i mean something. I havn't yet made any point on the consequences of what i've said, just asked people to find flaws in my reasoning. For the most part, this hasn't been done.

I really don't know how loud i have to yell this, but i'm not actually talking about finding fault with where you get your footage, or about you caring or not caring where anyone else does.

What i'm talking about is the ethical standards in how we are supposed to communicate through this forum and how, if you really think about it, there's a problem with what is allowed. I really don't want to get into that yet, I just want people to either agree or disagree with my logic. one step at a time.

JaddziaDax · Post by **JaddziaDax** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:04 pm

i dont believe that its unethical to support the industry (R1), because the creators stand to benefit from it...

if people didnt buy the R1 DVDs then the anime companies wouldnt buy the rights to anime and bring it over... so i dont see R1 as unethical.... because eventually it does come back to support the creators indirectly but it does.... plus it keeps the market fresh and the anime companies keep licencing stuff...

plus some anime companies have branches in ameria and distrobute their own stuff here.... (atleast i think so O.o)