We were newbs once, and young...

[Kalium]

He learns nothing from that, except how to flame in return.

Which is probably good to know anyway.

[trythil]

I don't see an excuse to flame - to be angry yes, but not to flame a first-time-poster. Flaming is pointless if a person doesn't know why he's getting flamed. He learns nothing from that, except how to flame in return. :?

I suppose it depends on the nature of the response, as well as just what a "flame" is. I've seen people take links titled as "Read <a href=http://www.a-m-v.org/guides/avtech31/>ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides</a>" or the less confrontational "read the guides" as flames, without actually investigating what those links lead to.

I would agree that contentless flames do not contribute positively towards a discussion and should be removed, whether or not the flamer is a regular or a newbie.

However, I'm not sure that all sarcasm is unnecessary. There's lessons to be taken from sarcastic responses, whether you've been around a long time or you're just starting out. Oftentimes, it's a good indication that your question has been dissected to death before.


(Yes, sarcasm is very difficult to convey across a text-based medium, and there are also languages -- and cultures -- where sarcasm doesn't really exist. However, if you're going to be posting on this board, you should realize that the vast majority of the members on it can converse in English and can recognize U.S. societal constructs in and outside of their proper context. I'd expect similar treatment to be given to me as well, should I do something like post on 2ch. End tangent.)

[O-Kagachi]

i may bash noobs alot, but i like everyone, EXCLUDING THE ALL POWERFUL PHADE, i was once a noob. im not threatened, offended, or anything of that sort by noobs, but they just need to read the guidelines, its utterly simple logic. i may not be important, popular, or loved at all on this website, but at least i know the rules.

[Arigatomina]

I like sarcasm myself. >.>

I just wish more people would simply say "If you want help, you have to be willing to help yourself. Here's how you can do that: read this guide, and if parts confuse you, be specific and we'll try to help you understand."

Sure, you can say it in fewer words and without the politeness, but it's the idea of it. Just tell them flat out that they aren't going to get it spoon-fed to them, so if they aren't willing to help themselves out by at least *trying* on their own, they can go somewhere else. That's cold and to the point, but it's still better than a flame.

I don't think I've ever seen *anyone* say that to a new member. And that's just sad compared to the number of flames I've seen errupt over the "spoon-feed me" problem.

[Tsunami Jones]

Time to discuss this a bit, methinks.

Another post from badmartialarts.

Alright, I've noticed something. Maybe it's the fact I've only been here a little over a year, but from my experiences here, it seems the newb bashing has risen to a all-time high. I don't remember getting bashed. Of course, I didn't ask the same random questions or try to use the boards as a chat room (well, until I got more comfortable here, at least). I used the SEARCH features and read the guides with enough of a computer background to understand them.

Now, I can't blame the regulars; well, that's a lie. I CAN blame the regulars (even myself) but there is another factor: the newb explosion. I might be going crazy but there are a lot of them running around hijacking/necroposting threads, being incredibly annoying and whatnot. A lot more than there used to be. It is a standard defense mechanism for any community to feel threatened/annoyed by new members and desire to a) integrate them as quickly as possible or b) expel them from the borders. Thus the quick posts of "Read the guides" followed by the equally quick posts of "LOL DIE N3WB."

Now that I've exceeded the standard attention span of the lam3r n3wbs, let me pose my questions.

1) There is a tremendous forum-only population here despite the lack of an off-topic section (which amazes me). I'M NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT THE PRESENCE OR NON-PRESENCE OF THE OFF-TOPIC BOARDS. (cough). Just something I've noticed. I've also noticed this population consistently hijacking threads to turn them into off-topic coversations, which either kills good threads or overcontinues stale ones. What can be done about this? I realize that a lot of the non-creator members here are in the process of making videos or are friends of creators or are just enthusiasts, and I respect that. But the thread hijacking...

2) Another problem with thread hijacking. This comes from the regulars, and is a very cheap tactic.

Random Newb: Hay I love Nar0to. I wanna make a video using Gaara's fight with Rock Lee but I don't know how.
Regular 1: Naruto blows.
Regular 2: Nar0to is awsm. Here newb, read the guides.
Regular 1: It BLOWS!
Regular 3: OMG OFF TOPIC PLS LOCK! [MOD XXX: Yeah, there are lots of Naruto topics already. Locked.]

Now, Regular 2's post was informative, at least. But the actions of Regular 1 and 3 were sure to negatively influence the newbs stay here, which I believe is the intended effect. What can be done about this?

These two situations bother me but I have no answers (save the standard "Mods need to work harder" which is the obvious but perhaps not the best answer). So, are there solutions?

Discuss.

Normally, when a thread such as the noob thing comes up (and there's actually helpful info somewhere in there), we look to see if the thread can be split first. If it would be pointless to do so, we lock it. Now, there are times when the thread gets locked, instead. The times I've seen this happen are when things are busy for us, and we don't neccessarily have the time to actually split the thread.
Now, as to us saying, "There are a lot of naruto topics already. Locked." That happens when there are topics of the exact same thing easily visible on the page.
And as to working "harder" I for one devote almost 100% of the time I can spend online to this site.

I agree that a lot of the regulars post a bunch of stupid shit all the time, which can in fact be a lot more irritating than what the noobs post. I admit that sometimes I get riled up myself. If someone shows incredible ignorance, I'll sometimes go off the deep end and "flame" said person. I try to keep it at a minimum though, and make most of my posts helpful.
I think if you cant say anything contructive or neutral to a thread, then don't say anything at all. And wtf is up with the constant calls to lock threads? Posting in a thread saying that it needs to be locked is just dumb. If you really feel that a thread needs to be locked, post in the moderator drop box instead of spamming up the place for the rest of us.

I don't really think there is a whole lot that can be done aside from more strictly enforced rules... other than DOING YOUR OWN PART. Speak to people in the forum in a maner that you would like to be spoken to. If you see a thread getting derailed, try to bring it back ontopic with something constructive.
And my brain just ran dry, so that's all I have to say here

That would be nice if more members actually did this (for those of you who already do this, thank you). It really isn't that hard to help people. And as mentioned, feel free to drop a post by in the mod box. Even if it's something trivial, we'll get around to it if you put it in the box.

Lock-happy mods and the regulars who know how to push buttons? ^_^

It's easy to get a newb thread locked, just blab to someone you know, wait for the newb to get confused and post some defensive remark, then cry for a lock. Thread closed, newb forced to make a new thread - recycle and repeat till newb gets banned, gets a clue and stops posting, or goes away. That takes care of the overeager newb problem right there.

As for bashing, it's not so bad right now - as of the last month or so - compared to what it was last year (from my perspective). Most of what we have now is in the Gen anime section - and that's always been that way. The new members posting help questions in the Gen AMV section don't even get cursed at - someone posts the answer and the thread is locked (or moved to the appropriate section) before a flaming session can break out. If there's any problem at all, it's the lock-happiness I've seen in the last few months. But you have to admit, they *are* telling the newbies why the thread gets locked. It used to be they'd just lock it without a word.

Since we do have open admins (and one open mod), maybe you can handle the new member problem on a more personal (and successful) level. I can tell from a person's first post if he's the type who will jump off and do it again the moment the thread is locked. Instead of locking that thread, try PM'ing the person - explain ettiquette, answer the questions he hasn't had a chance to ask in his (now locked) thread - and he probably won't make another one, or repeat the behavior.

Or - and here's a kicker - make a mod account under something common like "Moderator". Then any mod on-duty can use it to PM members - and no one will ever know which mod it was. This would let you reply to some of the questions put in the mods drop box, and it would give you that personal touch with new members that we don't (can't) have when our mods are unable to reply outside of forum posts.

But if I don't lock at least a thread a day, I get sick! But seriously, I would prefer a locked thread with a message than one that just disappears from the forum. Though, those are some good suggestions. I think I will perhaps try PMing people a bit more than I do, and see how it works out. But also again, fellow members can make posts and actually help get threads back on track, so that they aren't locked.

Or, you know, you could enforce tempbans, posting restrictions, IP lockouts, things of that nature.

Make the rules more strict, and enforce them. It's all well and good that we wanna hang out, have fun, discuss the things we like, but the reality is, this is a shining example of the honor system gone horribly wrong.

Admittedly, I do my share of being an asshat, so my credibility is less than stellar. However, there are numerous other forums out there that don't have this problem. Learn from them.

Archive popular series threads, so that n00bs don't pop up with ZOMGLOLZWTFBBB?!?!?! [Anime series here] kicks ass! Discuss!

Let's face it: If they're not smart enough to realize that a site with a few hundred K users hasn't ALREADY discussed [insert anime here] They deserve a healthy tempban.

Anyone stupid enough to engender flamebait should also enjoy a good pleasant vacation.

Bans and such happen probably far more than you realize. And as to IP lockouts, it's funny how people can get around them (such as yourself ) And, I personally see no reason to make the forums any more strict. Most of the members here follow the forum rules just fine, and I don't think there's any reason to punish those members simply because of the few who don't follow the rules, or what other members think the rules should be.

As to archiving threads, people can go back through if they want and post things from earlier pages. Now, this of course will make someone cry "Necropost!" but if an actuall discussion does resume over all of that, the thread will generally be left alone (unless of course, the conversation is well dead/or the post to bring it back didn't actually add anything).
And as to banning people just because they don't realize something has been discussed before is rather rediculous.

I also think that if certain people got together and teamed up to create a "newbie intro guide to the org" (I think some have been made, but knowing nubs, they don't read squat...). It'd be a group of people that tell the newb what to do, how stuff works, and above all else: what not to do, and if there are questions, to ask them (I've learned this the very hard way...).

I wouldn't mind this at all. If someone wants to type something up, we could actually just sticky it in the general anime section, for all to read. Although like they say, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."

This thread makes me smile.

Me too.

OK, here's my stream-of-consciousness take on this. Read or ignore it as you will.

When people post stuff like "im not one for research", inane requests for help with zero details, or AMV location requests that could be easily fulfilled by using existing, obvious search tools, then I believe that they deserve inflammatory responses.

I believe that one should do their utmost to learn on their own. If one requires outside assistance, then that person should provide a full, coherent log of actions and consequences. They should also provide what they believe to be sufficient context (hint: too much is never enough) and indicate a willingness to provide more detail if necessary. Most importantly, they should indicate that they are capable of experimentation and learning.

Though every forum has its problems, I do see the behavior I described in many places, such as LKML, the Gentoo forums, and in discussion boards on my college's intranet (which I can't link here, since they're password-protected).

Being a newbie is not an excuse for being lazy. The problem with many of the newbies on the .org, as I see it, is an unwillingness to experiment and an unwillingness to learn. They think that the skills involved with making AMVs -- artistic and technical -- are somehow mystical, out of their reach except by hand-holding. They don't bother to read and comprehend the vast amounts of information available to them both on this site and on the rest of the Internet.

That is bullshit, and I will not stand for it. Sometimes, serving sarcasm with assistance is the best way to help someone.

Is this elitism? I don't believe it is. I believe that people have an innate ability to feed their own brains, and I hate it when that capacity is lessened by excessive spoon-feeding.

Yes, I see these threads come up all the time (usually being responded to by Scintilla with a ). Unfortunatley, we can't do anything about people being lazy. My personal policy on this though, is that you should either help them, or just ignore them. It really isn't that hard to not waste time by flaming them (this isn't directly aimed at you, trythil). However, harsh talk laden with advice generally isn't flaming, and sometimes a little bit of "tough love" can go along way.

If someone makes a post incompetently and/or in poor spirit, I won't sink to the same level; but I do reserve a right to make a displeasing, sarcastic, or chastizing - if still (usually) acceptably-ethical - response. Whether the original post was made by a newbie or a regular should actually make little difference for me here.

And this is where I do agree with the initial sentiment here - yes, please, no breaks for regulars. Discipline for outright noob-bashing. Delete or censor clearly-offensive responses. Beat up elitists.

But no special slack for newbies, either, please. Being new is not a justification for incompetence, merely a cheap exceuse. Although perceived incompetence is not a good justification for someone to attack a neophyte, it is a justification to point out and chastize the incompetence.

And keep in mind, when I'm sarcastic in a newbie thread, I never ridicule a newbie, I only poke at the incompetence itself. I never just 'make up' my mind about someone being 'totally awesome' or 'an idiot'. In my eyes, everyone has equal credit, to gain or lose.

And, indeed, let's not give any de-equalizing special preferences here.

As I said above, I'll strat PMing people more (especially the new members). As to the non-new members, I will try to be more vigilant in it. However, if anyone does see "newb bashing", please feel free to drop a PM in the mod box, or if you don't feel comfortable about that, please PM one of us. This process, while simple, is very helpful to us.

I don't see an excuse to flame - to be angry yes, but not to flame a first-time-poster. Flaming is pointless if a person doesn't know why he's getting flamed. He learns nothing from that, except how to flame in return.

Very well said.

im not threatened, offended, or anything of that sort by noobs, but they just need to read the guidelines, its utterly simple logic. i may not be important, popular, or loved at all on this website, but at least i know the rules.

Unfortunately, many people are very lazy, and just ignore the rules, and you should feel free to link them to the rules. If this is too much of a pain to copy/paste the web address, use this handy little shortcut. Just time in org-forum-rules without the hyphens, and you get this: org <a href="http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=289">Forum Rules</a>.

Sure, you can say it in fewer words and without the politeness, but it's the idea of it. Just tell them flat out that they aren't going to get it spoon-fed to them, so if they aren't willing to help themselves out by at least *trying* on their own, they can go somewhere else. That's cold and to the point, but it's still better than a flame.

I don't think I've ever seen *anyone* say that to a new member.

I have, but it's very far and few between. And yes, it would be nice to see this a bit more.

[Arigatomina]

I think I will perhaps try PMing people a bit more than I do, and see how it works out.

You're the only mod who can, but don't take the criticism/advice/complaints here all on yourself - we do have hidden mods. With a general "Moderator" account, they'd all be able to PM if they wanted to. We have a lot of members, so we should have a number of mods to help watch those members, at least on the forum. It's too much work for one person. ^_^;

Maybe we could get a count on the number of mods so we'd know if/when the org is understaffed. It's harder to complain about the locked threads if we know our mods don't have time to save them. And hopefully you'd get more help from regular members if they knew help was needed in curbing things like newb-fests and off-topic drifts.

[badmartialarts]

There are only two mods that I ever take note of, MOD42 (who's identity shall remain secret) and MOD99 (likewise) even though I think I know who they are. Otherwise it's TJ, AD, Paizuri, or even Derobert doing something about the thread. If there ARE more mods they either all call themselves MOD42 and MOD99 to be confusatory (that's a good word!) or they don't post anything when they lock/split threads.

[Scintilla]

What happened to MOD 4-hundred-something and MOD 5-hundred-something? They used to be all over the place.

[Arigatomina]

What happened to MOD 4-hundred-something and MOD 5-hundred-something? They used to be all over the place.

They're the ones I remember, back in the OT days especially. I was hoping they'd just changed the numbers.

[AbsoluteDestiny]

They traded their numbers in excahnge for shiny orange colouring.