subgenres are retarded

[HeavyMetal]

The people I was insulting to at first was Creed. Most old school Metal fans would agree. If you jump in, offer opinion and no fact its like painting a bulleye. I'm typically easy going but when someone pisses me off I tend become one cold bastard.

Confucius once said something to the effect that, A man should have a heart as soft as tofu and tongue as sharp as a dagger.

I gave explanations, examples, personal thoughts, and musical information that is about as explained as it gets. Shit my posts are too long already. I don't think most people want to read any more than they have too.

You call me a no nothing, yet you say Ozzy and Randy wrote "horror music". Granted that may have been an occasional theme, but you just made a new subgenre in a thread about not liking subgenres. If that were the case everything played in A minor with a quick and frequent up stroke becomes horror music. That sort of shifts a lot of music into different sections all across the musical board for the past thousand years.

Hey at least I actually offered musical form information as opposed to popular or group opinion on what constitutes as Metal.

Finally Goth Rock my ass. Goth rock is Incubus. If you didn't have the attention span of a gnat you would realize that I stated my favorite band is Metallica. That falls into speed/thrasher metal. Plus their Orchestrated Metal album. :n|m:

[Farlo]

my favorite band is Metallica. That falls into speed/thrasher metal.

metallica was once that, but they are now a dried up shell of their former selves...i like metallica stuff until the black album...after and justice for all they turned into a crappy band(they say they matured i say fuck them)...but its my opinion and opinions are like assholes...most people are one.

[Sean_H]

don't forget the stipulation of having owned/downloaded/headbanged to at least one hammerfall album, prior to bashing said band. (closet hammerfall fans are prefectly accepted under the strict guidelines of dont ask dont tell)

*RUNS*

I used to own ALL of their albums, ha ha. I've since gotten rid of them all, barring the first two. I still like to listen to those from time to time.

[Qyot27]

Finally Goth Rock my ass. Goth rock is Incubus. If you didn't have the attention span of a gnat you would realize that I stated my favorite band is Metallica. That falls into speed/thrasher metal. Plus their Orchestrated Metal album. :n|m:

Personally, I think that the reason they're getting on you about it is because of the fact they think you hardly have a grasp on what they're talking about (how true or untrue that is, I don't know, and I'm not going to get into it). I'm not going to say anything about your knowledge of Metal, but considering you said Incubus is Goth Rock kind of shows the sort of jump-to logic everyone thinks you're using.

Goth Rock is definitely not Incubus (and I am assuming you're referring to the Calabasas, California band that keeps hitting the alternative top 40, not the two other bands from Britain and South America which have been classified under Metal by All Music Guide). Incubus is hard alternative rock (seeing as how alt. rock never really gets grindingly hard). Goth Rock is a form of music that is far lighter and less thrashing (I'm using that as an adjective) than most hard rock, alternative or no. Bauhaus, Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Cure, Gene Loves Jezebel, Sisters Of Mercy, All About Eve...those are Goth Rock bands. Later it started fusing with Industrial and Industrial Dance and you get VNV Nation, The Cruxshadows, Vast, and whatnot. I'm sure everyone else on here can tell you what Goth Metal sounds like, since I'm not really all that in-depth on that part. But Incubus isn't any of that. Saying they are is just giving them more ammo to say you don't know what you're talking about, no matter how many technical terms you throw out on music composition or music history.

The opinion on what constitutes as Metal can vary from person to person, but Goth rock is fairly straightforward, since its sound is incredibly unique.

Yes, you said Metallica was your favorite band; I'm not going to dispute with you how Metal or not that they are, but when you start throwing other types of music into it and from the example you give clearly don't know what it is, the fans of said style are going to get mad and start coming out of the woodwork. Not many people actually have taken the time to learn what true Goth Rock is. Those that have, and actually enjoy that type of music, don't really take kindly to someone issuing a statement like that about Incubus, no matter how tolerant of other's opinions Goths or fans of Goth Rock tend to be. Apply that same logic to other types of music and you're practically asking for the same reaction.

[taeli]

There seems to be a lot of arguing over which subgenre certain bands fit into. In a topic called subgenres are retarded. How peculiar.

[nailz]

actually, we're pretty much arguing over what PRIMARY genere bands belong in.

[HeavyMetal]

There seems to be a lot of arguing over which subgenre certain bands fit into. In a topic called subgenres are retarded. How peculiar.

Fair enough. It is still more on subject than some forum topics, though.

If you read the earlier posts I mentioned the circle diagram. Bands vary from song to song and album to album. That is what makes them difficult to place.

Back in the day, Van Halen was considered to be the some of the most mainstream Metal. Most here would deny it.

What people consider to be Metal has changed over the years. That is why I lean to a musical standard as opposed the popular opinion.

Incubus is Goth Rock kind of shows the sort of jump-to logic everyone thinks you're using.

I don't know if most here have completely read all the posts, but I was the one who actually used references to things like musical forms and methods of playing.

As for Incubus I classified them by their remake of the song Paint It Black. In this case they are very Goth. It has a wine-ish smooth dark sound to the vocal and a light creepy sound to the music. Yeah that song is Goth rock and a half even by popular definition. I somewhat unfairly chose this as my representation of the band in my mind.

Once again a reference to my example of the circle drawing. Its like a Vin Diagram. Things overlap in classification.

This is a more blunt example than song to song. Its like Rap Metal, is it Metal or is it Rap? Its neither and both. A fusion of the two with qualities of each.

Here is the jump to the song to song diagram of classification.

The questions in this part are retoricle for any smart asses out there.

Take Metallica's song Nothing Else Matters. Metal....hell no. To paraphrase Kirk Hammet, A lot fans are like we love your band, but %$@#! that song.

Now take Master of Puppets or Ain't My Bitch....Metal....yes indeed. Full of hard downbeats, bass lines, power chords, and harsh swift thread plucking.

As for Ain't My Bitch it's post self title album more commonly known as the Black album. (Yeah I went there. It depends on what post Black Album song you base your opinion on as to how Metal they still are in the present.) Come to think of it, the song almost has an ACDC feel to it (mostly at the quick, rising sound guitar part).

Now the album S&M by Metallica. Is that Metal? Yes, it is Orchestrated Metal. The orchestra accompanies not compliments the band.

In the case of the Trans Siberian Orchestra the music is not Metal. Why? Because the band takes the role of the soloist portion of the orchestra. They compliment it as a counter part, a piece of the orchestra as a whole.

While Metallica was a band with an Orchestra functioning as an accompanying part.

Not to demean Michael Kamen or the San Francisco Orchestra in any way. They put in a lot of work that if not done right would have made the album horrid. Fortunately they excelled at their role to make one of the few good orchestrated fusions of Rock or Metal with Classical.


Back on the topic of Incubus

A lot of their music features gasping ragged sounds with the light (yes thats right not in sound in style) use of up stroke guitar notes. I agree that a lot of their songs aren't Goth Rock. However Goth music is actually a part of Alternative, as is Grunge, that borders on the edge of Metal and Rock.

Of course Metal itself is just a subgenre of Rock that grew into its own sections as its sound and style became too different from Rock.

Long long ago Elvis was considered Rock. Its a shift in public opinion that dominates the arguments of many here.

I choose to hold Metal to perhaps the less popular, but more immortal standard of musical form.

(For those skilled in logic you will notice the fundamental flaw of the objective here. It is choice. You as in "I" have to make the subjective choice to select the objective. Though the subjective has its own fundamental flaws.)

The opinion on what constitutes as Metal can vary from person to person, but Goth rock is fairly straightforward, since its sound is incredibly unique.

This is an example of popular opinion and its effects. Goth Rock is a little easier as it has been more mainstream within recent years. Wait about 10 or 20 years and the same vary to person to person opinion will apply. Unless of course the public quits whoring to MTV and popularity, but that is another matter.

No one would deny the classification of Mozart's works, but that is because the musical form is more commonly know by the public or at least those within his sphere of fans.

I think the confusion here is caused by the subsections of subgenres. I think that is throwing people off. But as I said before Heavy Metal really grew into its own genre from its root as a subgenre of Rock.

If anything I said seemed like jump-to logic it was probably because I did a stupid thing and assumed people understood more about musical notation, history, and the like than was the case.

Don't get me wrong I thank you for pointing out less explained areas of my argument Qyot27.

I did not really finish a complete explanation here, but its hard to do without diagrams and an even more ridiculously long post.

I did not feel like giving a lesson in orchestra composition or drawing up some pictures real quick. Or going further into the origins of Metal, Rock, standards of judgement (canons), shifts in opinion, or completely re-writing and simplifying previous posts.

Not to bash you by any means, but I am going to use a word/phrase you chose an example of what has happened in this forum.

Not many people actually have taken the time to learn what true Goth Rock is.

The word 'true' here denotes a subjective opinion, though in the unusaual case above it is not by the one who made the statement.

Subjective arguments are often fruitless to dispute and less concrete in their bases.

Subjective arguments are based on "I" from those making the argument. Subjective is often a matter of personal desire, convenience, or preference.

I have tried to stick to objective logic.

Objective arguments base themselves on independent existence from the person making the claim of a statements validity.

Here is a funny case example:

OJ Simpson says I didn't do it. This is Subjective.

DNA, a knife, a glove, and short police chase of an athlete despite his popularity at the time are Objective.

Damn me and my rational logic, if a little sketchy on the details for the reason of length.

To be honest I hang out with some metalheads. Most of them would argue that the world is flat just to start something. Without a well and enough to time for the seasons to change it really can't be proven otherwise.

I never thought I would change anyone's opinion here. Subjective perspectives on arguments often give no grounds for approach. I just thought I would offer the information to neutral parties.

Unfortunately it seems a lot of the time when a person makes a new post its seems the previous posts by the person are forgotten which can cause problems when people throw semantics at you without reference to the previously ordained well of statements and logic chains.

[nailz]

Once again a reference to my example of the circle drawing. Its like a Vin Diagram. Things overlap in classification.

I suppose by that logic, you can call Blind Guardian Soft Rock because of Harvest of Sorrow. Try telling them that though.

[Qyot27]

Incubus is Goth Rock kind of shows the sort of jump-to logic everyone thinks you're using.

I don't know if most here have completely read all the posts, but I was the one who actually used references to things like musical forms and methods of playing.

As for Incubus I classified them by their remake of the song Paint It Black. In this case they are very Goth. It has a wine-ish smooth dark sound to the vocal and a light creepy sound to the music. Yeah that song is Goth rock and a half even by popular definition. I somewhat unfairly chose this as my representation of the band in my mind.

Well, after checking a few databases and resources at my disposal, I can only assume you're referring to the cover of Paint It Black by either Inkubus Sukkubus (a known Gothic band), or GOB (a punk band whose cover of Paint It Black was featured on the Stir Of Echoes soundtrack). Neither one is Incubus, the band from Calabasas that performed 'Pardon Me'. And after listening to the Inkubus Sukkubus cover of Paint It Black I'm pretty sure that's the one you're referring to.

However Goth music is actually a part of Alternative, as is Grunge, that borders on the edge of Metal and Rock.

What are you basing the title of 'Goth music' on? There's a marked difference among the types of music that those in the Goth scene listen to, those that have a 'Gothic' sound, and those that are actually 'Goth Rock' or 'Goth Metal'. 'Goth Rock' was born out of post-punk, a section of arty music that many punk bands started performing after their original bands broke up. Post-punk's heyday was from 1978 to about 1984. Goth Rock is a form of post-punk, which is properly classified under Alternative, but never bordered on Metal (though there was a small handful of bands that experimented with it, but they were far outnumbered by the lighter artists). Goth Metal, on the other hand, is fairly recent, being about ten to fifteen years old, and has incorporated Metal into itself, that much I do know.

The opinion on what constitutes as Metal can vary from person to person, but Goth rock is fairly straightforward, since its sound is incredibly unique.

This is an example of popular opinion and its effects. Goth Rock is a little easier as it has been more mainstream within recent years. Wait about 10 or 20 years and the same vary to person to person opinion will apply. Unless of course the public quits whoring to MTV and popularity, but that is another matter.

How long do you think Goth Rock has been around? It hasn't been more mainstream in recent years. Even when Marilyn Manson (who, by the way, is not a Goth Rock artist) was constantly hitting MTV, that overall style of music wasn't all that popular. I think you're mistaking Goth Rock for Industrial Metal. Goth Rock first came into its own in the late 70s and early 80s, became really big over in Britain for most of the 80s, and slowly fizzled out. Goth Metal propagated in Scandinavia mostly, with some exceptions. Industrial was first pioneered in Britain in the mid-70s, as an incredibly abrasive backlash at the society, and eventually grew more melodic but no less abrasive, and eventually started incorporating Metal into itself with the likes of Ministry. Industrial has always been dark, but was born entirely seperate of Goth Rock. In the early 90s, as Goth Rock was by and large fading away, a lot of Industrial artists started to cross-breed Industrial with Goth Rock, but for the most part, Industrial, Industrial Dance, and Industrial Metal don't have Goth Rock elements in them, even though they are very dark and often times haunting. There are certain things which qualify something as Industrial. Two of the most distinctive ones are the jackhammer drums and piercing synth noises that often times will drown out much of the rest of the music. It's intended to be discordant, menacing, and ominous. At the beginning, it was just synthesizers and electronics experiments, no guitars, and had some very abstract singing put in front of it. Over time, it grew darker and heavier.

I did not feel like giving a lesson in orchestra composition or drawing up some pictures real quick. Or going further into the origins of Metal, Rock, standards of judgement (canons), shifts in opinion, or completely re-writing and simplifying previous posts.

It should be noted that what is considered to be a Gothic piece in an orchestra setting might be the same when applied to rock music, but not always. There are other elements that either shadow those defining elements in orchestral pieces that may have stuck around or flat out compose the music entirely, without those orchestral elements in them at all. The definition of Goth Rock and Goth Metal comes from looking at the state of affairs more than 20 years ago in Britain and the particular fashion style and lyrical musings of artists from that time period. Very few of the mainstream Goths now, spawned from the Matrix movies or Rob Zombie's albums (which are actually Industrial records with horror movie themes), know what the roots of the culture they claim to belong to are. Even fewer people outside that culture know or understand what the actual Goth rock movement was composed of. Most connect it with Columbine and instantly say that Goths are violent when in actuality it's the actions of an extreme few. Such is the same with music. Just because it contains a certain sound may make the song 'Gothic', but that doesn't make it 'Goth Rock', since Goth Rock implies not only a particular way of performing that hasn't been popular since around 1992 in the UK (and which never gained popularity in the US, save for a couple bands that would rarely hit the US pop charts, like The Cure or Siouxsie and the Banshees). It started picking up a little steam at the end of the 90s, but by that point a large portion of the new Goths coming about then were really just Industrial artists with Goth aesthetics and a much more marketable mainstream sensibility. There may be a shift in the popular definition of what type of music one has to listen to to be 'Goth', but the music style itself doesn't change classification (and most Goths are non-conformist, so there is no set type of music one has to listen to). Elvis is still considered Rock and Roll, like he was then. The term Rock and Roll is very rarely used anymore to describe bands, and the ones that are described that way now usually sound like those bands from the 50s and early to mid 60s that were called Rock and Roll when that was all there was aside from Doo Wop, Blues, Country, and Jazz.

To see the difference between modern (as in mainstream) Industrial music devoid of Goth influence and Goth Rock as it was at it's peak, locate "Light" by KMFDM (Industrial) and "Fascination Street" by The Cure (Goth Rock) and compare the two. If you want non-mainstream Industrial, look for "Convulsion" by Skinny Puppy.

Using classical descriptors to label rock genres isn't going to do much. If that was the case, how much of rock would be considered Baroque, or Neo-Classical, or Gothic? Trying to argue over what a genre is, based on certain ways of playing from the standpoint of music history, isn't going to do squat. The culture needs to be brought into the equation, and subgenres instantly become defining elements when referring to a certain brand of rock. No one that's taken classical music training is going to call a piece of Baroque music Neo-Classical, because those are two different eras of music. While rock can't quite be classified by era (and when it does you get non-specific blanket terms which people start arguing over, much like this thread), but it couldn't be classified by a defining term, like Baroque or Gothic or Neo-Classical are for classical music. Instead you'd get something like 1950s/1960s Rock and Roll; 1970s Hard Rock; 1980s Hard Rock; 1990s Alternative/Hard Rock; and 2000s Alternative/Hard Rock. Those are hardly informative terms, since alternative didn't just come about at the beginning of the 90s, and from the late 60s onward there have been distinct divisions between Hard Rock, Metal, and Mainstream Rock, no matter how much the three overlap.

[HeavyMetal]

Once again a reference to my example of the circle drawing. Its like a Vin Diagram. Things overlap in classification.

I suppose by that logic, you can call Blind Guardian Soft Rock because of Harvest of Sorrow. Try telling them that though.

Yep. Try to think in terms of a graph on a polar coordinate system. (make one if you have too.) Where ever the bulk of the songs are that is the genre of the band. It just means they have dabbled in another genre. If they can't except it that is their own personal issue.

Qyot27

Sorry, I originally meant Inkubus not Incubus.

Mixed my own damn self up with a spelling error. Actually more like a spell check error. Made me mix them up.

As for Goth Rock I meant Goth Metal. I write these things too late at night.

Anyway it was a mix up of words that may have given the impression of confusion between Industrial and Goth.

I don't know who would confuse Marilyn Manson for Goth Rock anything.

I was using Orchestrated Metal i.e. the album S&M to describe what I meant by the circle drawing. It was a re-cap from another post to give further explanation.

That is why I put 'back to Incubus'. Which by that point I had long since confused myself about which Inc(k)ubus I was talking about. At no point was I discussing Goth in terms of Classical.

Actually if I was using 'classical descriptors' I would be using words like Baroque, Renaissance, secular, and sacred.

The words I used have been around a while but didn't actually exist during the very beginning of Classical music.

Why? Because at that time there was no music notation. It began when monks drew a four lined 'staff' to judge vocal ranges.

I was actually talking about 'music notation'.

Notation comes from musical history, but notes are universal. That’s why a D note can be played on a drum, guitar, keyboard, piano, horn, etc.

It doesn't matter what type of music is notated as all can be notated. If there are no notes there is no music. Hell as garbled as some parts of Nirvana songs are even they can be written in music notation.

Classical music was just the first to utilize the advantage of being able to write music down in order to repeat it later. Thats only becuase notation came a little after Classical began and from the same global region.

If rock had come first (just run with this say it was magic or Bill & Ted's phonebooth) then it would have been the first to use musical notation.

As for what I was saying about orchestra structure here is the explanation.

It was in refenence to what I said about the circle drawing. I was disginuishing as an example why Metallica's album S&M was Orchestrated Metal and the Trans Siberian Orchestra is not.

Metallica was featuring Michael Kamen and the San Francisco Orchestra.

The Trans Siberian Orchestra has a standing 'rock band' (not exactly as they are part of the orchestra) which exists within the orchestra as the soloists.

I thought people may confuse soloists when applied to 'rock band'. You see in orchestra structure those situated to the left out in front beyond the bonds of the orchestra seating are soloists.

The thing about Goths is as 'non-conformist' as they appear, its really just conforming to a counter culture style.

Similarly the long hair of Metal in the days of old. Individuals first made the choice to go against the standards of industrialization (not to be confused with industrial music) which included short hair. You did not want your hair getting stuck in some assembly line machine.
(Ironic as the guitar is a product of industrialization.)

The difficulty comes when others imitate to fit in and form a scattered set of individuals into a group.

Of course the long hair thing started earlier with hippies which left hair as a symbol of rebellion to future musicians regardless of genre. Once a feature becomes popularized people try to manufacture it and that sucks all the meaning out of it the first place.

As for eras and the difficulty of classifing things like Rock, that is exactly why I go by notation; its a universal standard beyond any genre.

Hope that explains my thinking. I judge by notation as it can be applied to all forms of music.