subgenres are retarded

[ithaqua]

ya, and demon hunter and as i lay dying. my friends crazy for them. hes actually in the audience in as i lay dyings newest music video! personally, i look at industrial like i look at the rest of the metal genre... but whos judging?

Industrial isn't metal.
Never has been, never will be.

There are some cross-over bands, but they are two distinct genres, like pop, hip-hop, folk, or country.

[Sean_H]

I hate it when people automatically assume that if something's heavy, it must be metal. Because, contrary to popular belief, distortion, screaming, and whatever else does not make a band metal. Bands like Korn or any other nu-"metal" bands are a perfect example of this.

[HeavyMetal]

Since nobody has given a musical description of Heavy Metal, I will do it.

With Exception to Kai Stromler. He actually got the basic personality and some form elements down pretty well. Especially the part about Black Sabbath as the origin of Metal.


I do have a question for Kai Stromler. What did you mean by Sellouts are Metal? I can't think of who you are talking about.

Oh I don't don't specify a Metal subgenre becuase I like a lot of Metal across the board. My all time favorite band is mostly a thrasher and speed band, but varies greatly from album to album while maintaining a signature sound.

Some Metal does have taste. (I know you said in many cases) But some big metal bands actually write notes and have musical form. My fav uses a classic 4 part design. Plus there are a few (very few) successfully orchestrated albums. (Its awesome when it works out, but that is often not the case.)

Just a thought to go along with your 'what is metal' topic. When only a sketchy image exists you can do this. Draw out what is around it. It will then become clear like the last piece in a puzzle.

In short:
Metal makes you put up the horns.
\m/

~Yeah~.

Metal Defined:

Metal is characterized as rock with a deeper bass line. The sound is often high and lower in range than normal rock. The pace is often much faster with more numerous chords.

Another big part of Metal is the harder method of pressing the guitar threads.

It also contains more use of 6th power chords. Eddie Van Halen was famous for these. (They are a bitch to do for most in rapid succession as you have to use your index(1) and little(4) fingers spaced widely.)

Sometimes it becomes slow in the case of things like power ballads. These usually maintain Metal style by being very climatic with the electric guitar. Fade to Black is the best example I can think of off the top of my head, but many more exist.

Rock typically has a 4x4 pattern but so does most else and there are exceptions. Though what Kai Scroller said about the blues was very right in a lot cases.

Personality:

Metal is also characterized by a 'who gives a shit attitude'.
( 8) Slash always had a guitar or a bottle of JD in his hands. But man could he play.)

If you want to go on personality alone without musical or historical information here is the line between Christian Rock and Metal.

If you ask Metal fans why they like Metal, you often get a varied arrangement of answers. Some will be similar (duh millions of fans), but often similarity ends at the border of different sections of Metal. (Personally I like Metal due to the energetic, kick-ass, varied range, and general 'hell yeah' sound. That is the extremely simplified reason though.)

(This means for you christian rock fans if you have to say 'gosh darn it' you are pu$! not a metal band. Yes, I have heard and seen christian rock that is how I know. I don't mean to be insulting. If you like it I am glad for you. But I consider it a duty to inform people about music with my knowledge of useless information.)

Ever see that commercial for the christian rock cd set. Its like an old SciFi movie. The hive minded group thought from the attack of the brain pods. Again if it makes you feel better go for it, as I mean no offense.

Metal + Christian = Matter + Antimatter

But Metal will typically do one of three things: make war on god/group thinking/programmed behavior; question gods existence; or as many famous songs do, lament the loss of a friend.

If thats really what you think, then there's a lot of stuff out there you're not aware of. There's a shitload of christian metal bands. It's a whole genere. .. white metal. =P .. And if you think metal is limited to those 3 concepts, put away your angst and check out some REAL bands.

Note the word typically. Sorry but christian rock(mostly soft at that) can't even say 'shitload'. So don't even start. If you think their is a christian metal band then name it and I'll check it out.

\m/ can't do that to christian either.

Mister Rogers can you say ~'Slayer'~.

No one is more metal than superman.

Steel is week compared to many metals. More useless knowledge; superman was an HA idea cooked up by a couple of 13yr old boys to begin the main stream soap opera bad dialogue and drug out for marketability storylines that are your typical american comic standard.


Gee I noticed you stayed way wwwaaayyy away from this part:

I’m not saying Metal can’t make a song about the philosophical Christian concept. Knockin' on Heaven's Door was awesome.

I hope people in this forum don't classify music based on MTV, VH1, or chain music stores. (I mean who the hell puts Nirvana in the same boat as Brittany Spears. Nirvana was grunge/alternative not pop. Lumping Pop/Rock together is just plain distasteful.)

Besides classifying a band is like doing a circle drawing. You take all their songs draw overlapping circles around different types of songs. A good band should not fall strictly in one area or they risk sounding monotonous.

I use Nirvana as my example due to their extremely varied songs. Here is an example; their song Dumb doesn’t sound anything like Smells Like Teen Spirit.

Sorry to be so hard nailz1000. I really don't mean to be I just want to defend my stance.

You agreed with Kai Stromler's definition, but yet in a few ways it contradicts your assertion of "white metal".

More on Metal:

(I'll have to draw up my musical relations chart sometime soon in digital format.) You might like Kai Stromler. May take a few days though.

Anyway Heavy Metal is just a general category.

The main categories are as follows;

(there are a few more as well as border line and minor categories.)

Black Metal
Def Metal
Death Metal
Classic Metal
Progressive Metal
Speed Metal
Thrash Metal

A couple border line sections:

Rap Metal (between Metal and Rap) - Limp Bizkit
Grunge (between Metal and Alternative) - Nirvana
Orchestrated Metal (Minor category but has had some major moments.)

[Kai Stromler]

I do have a question for Kai Stromler. What did you mean by Sellouts are Metal? I can't think of who you are talking about.

This is pretty simple; see Metallica circa 1996, when they started going around saying stuff like "we never really considered ourselves a heavy metal band", or more recently, Brides of Destruction (Nikki Sixx: "I don't really like the term 'heavy metal'; it's all rock'n'roll to me"). Nobody is really being fooled here, and it just makes the bands involved look petty.

As a note, you might consider looking into heavier white metal bands as opposed to letting Creed define the genre for you. Yes, Narnia and Bride suck, but Tourniquet (buy Where Moth And Rust Destroy NOW) and Believer have put out some excellent material, and even Mortification has their moments.

As for your main genre listing/chart idea, I did a similar thing a while back, but it was ascii-art and very difficult to manage all the connections. It's a little weird that you include "def metal" (no idea wtf this is; do you mean Living Colour/Suicidal Tendencies funk metal or Korn/RAtM nu-metal?) while leaving out doom. Maybe it's just my age, but I still think it's a disservice to Candlemass, Cathedral, MDB, Neurosis, et al, to just gather them in under death metal.

--K

[nailz]

If thats really what you think, then there's a lot of stuff out there you're not aware of. There's a shitload of christian metal bands. It's a whole genere. .. white metal. =P .. And if you think metal is limited to those 3 concepts, put away your angst and check out some REAL bands.

Note the word typically. Sorry but christian rock(mostly soft at that) can't even say 'shitload'. So don't even start. If you think their is a christian metal band then name it and I'll check it out.

I wasn't directly refering to simply Christian metal bands, I was refering to Metal as a genere. In fact, 90% of the stuff I do listen to doesn't even entail music with underlying themes like that. If I wanted themes of anger and teen angst, I'll spin my disturbed and linkin park cds. Though I bet you consider both bands 'metal' as well, don't you?

\m/ can't do that to christian either.

I consider myself christian, and not only do I flash that symbol constantly, but feel a certian sense of pride when someone gives it to me as well.

Steel is week compared to many metals. More useless knowledge; superman was an HA idea cooked up by a couple of 13yr old boys to begin the main stream soap opera bad dialogue and drug out for marketability storylines that are your typical american comic standard.

Yes, but how many other people do you know made of metal?

I’m not saying Metal can’t make a song about the philosophical Christian concept. Knockin' on Heaven's Door was awesome.

I stayed away from this because there's not an ounce of me that believes Guns 'n Roses are metal, in any sense of the word. I group them in hard rock. So since I do not share your opinion on this songs genere origin, I won't comment on it. It would have been easier to digest if you would have used Blind Guardians Another Holy War, Precious Jeruslam, Sadly Sings Destiny, etc etc etc.

I hope people in this forum don't classify music based on MTV, VH1, or chain music stores. (I mean who the hell puts Nirvana in the same boat as Brittany Spears. Nirvana was grunge/alternative not pop. Lumping Pop/Rock together is just plain distasteful.)

Again, something I need not comment on considering this is not something I do. I go into stores, and I know where to look for the CDs I want. Until there is a section big enough for Metal, I'll have to settle for the fact that Mercenary, Gamma Ray, Leprechaun, and Iron Savior will be in with Pop/Rock (if they're there at all). Though I do think it's the best place for Hammerfall.

Besides classifying a band is like doing a circle drawing. You take all their songs draw overlapping circles around different types of songs. A good band should not fall strictly in one area or they risk sounding monotonous. I use Nirvana as my example due to their extremely varied songs. Here is an example; their song Dumb doesn’t sound anything like Smells Like Teen Spirit.

So you're saying that every bad band sounds like Andrew WK. Wow, a band that wrote two songs that don't sound ANYTHING alike.. absolute genious. Bands will develop their own unique sound and stick .. more or less .. to it. I brought up a point in the Blind Guardian forum a while back based on Nightwish that uses the reverse of your logic. I challenged Toumas as a very incompitent songwriter because he doesn't seem to have a lot of confidence in any of the material he writes. If anyone cares, I can either re-write what I had written or see if I can dig it up over there, but I don't feel like wasting my time typing up how I don't believe nightwish had truely found their 'sound' cerca Century Child.

Sorry to be so hard nailz1000. I really don't mean to be I just want to defend my stance.

hard nothing.

[DDramone]

god damn, everyones writin fuckin essays.

yeah, id like to know how important the "flash" factor is in metal. seems alot of bands have to have some flash. shocking violence, 2 hr solos, big, expensive lighting at shows, the most expensive guitars, the costumes n shit, the big hair, the contacts to make your eyes look weird... bin kinda a turn off for me.

[Kai Stromler]

god damn, everyones writin fuckin essays.

yeah, id like to know how important the "flash" factor is in metal. seems alot of bands have to have some flash. shocking violence, 2 hr solos, big, expensive lighting at shows, the most expensive guitars, the costumes n shit, the big hair, the contacts to make your eyes look weird... bin kinda a turn off for me.

"flash" is like the opposite of important....except for violence, and in a few subgenres, the solos, much of what you've mentioned have been non-issues for the better part of 15 years.

Shock antics, if that's what you mean, have also been largely "out" for a while (except with Gorgoroth, they can't stop crucifying people and throwing sheep heads at the audience). As a punker, you should understand the cathartic value of controlled violence; pits are pits, no matter who's on stage.

Solos are the other side of the coin; playing well-crafted and technically difficult solos shows that you know what you're doing, especially as much of the audience (at least today) are players themselves and can appreciate what's being done.

In this modern age I've got little idea how you've managed to hang on to so many mainstream-'80s misconceptions; us thrashers here clogging up a thread originally about something else entirely will be glad to help dispel them. As a start you may want to check out some Carcass (Swansong and Heartwork records first), then, since you're coming from a punk background, a few of the more NWOSDM-influenced acts that have been cropping up on Victory lately; failing that, a more-or-less random selection of tracks from here will probably steer you in the right direction.

--K

[DDramone]

well a pit isnt ... throwin sheep heads n shit.

[Kai Stromler]

Exactly...that's why a lot of people think black metal is silly, or dumb.

In all fairness, most black metal bands don't do that shit any more; very few people have the mentality required to live and perform like Dead (Mayhem) did, and most of those tend to kill themselves fairly quickly, much like he did.

--K

[nailz]

Black Metal IS silly and dumb. =P