As he said 'episodes', I assume he meant the TV series ^_~dwchang wrote:I somewhat agree for Kenshin *IF* you mean the TV series. If it's the manga, it ends beautifully.derek_t wrote: 3% "The (anime here) has a perfect ending and then goes on 10 episodes too long" (Eva and Kenshin)
The spoiler to end all spoilers...
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Savia
- Chocolate teapot
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 3:40 pm
- Location: Reading, UK
Re: Actually I find this is more true
"A creator needs only one enthusiast to justify him." - Man Ray
"Restrictions breed creativity." - Mark Rosewater
A Freudian slip is where you say one thing, but mean your mother.
"Restrictions breed creativity." - Mark Rosewater
A Freudian slip is where you say one thing, but mean your mother.
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UncleMilo
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:41 pm
- Location: Southern California
- Contact:
I have to disagree as well.
You can't blame His and Her Circumstances for its ending... the anime was supposed to continue... but it didn't. This happens sometimes... and not just in anime.
EVA is a complete story. It has a complete ending and I don't know what you're talking about with TEN episodes.
Trigun most certainly had an ending... a strong one at that.
Now... Japanese storytelling does tend to end when "there's no more point in telling the story"... so they don't always give you a black and white THE END... but they give you more than enough information so any answers you have should be answered by the context of the series.
-Uncle Milo
You can't blame His and Her Circumstances for its ending... the anime was supposed to continue... but it didn't. This happens sometimes... and not just in anime.
EVA is a complete story. It has a complete ending and I don't know what you're talking about with TEN episodes.
Trigun most certainly had an ending... a strong one at that.
Now... Japanese storytelling does tend to end when "there's no more point in telling the story"... so they don't always give you a black and white THE END... but they give you more than enough information so any answers you have should be answered by the context of the series.
-Uncle Milo
There are two kinds of people in this world:
Those who divide people into two kinds of groups
and those who don't.
Those who divide people into two kinds of groups
and those who don't.
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dwchang
- Sad Boy on Site
- Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:22 am
- Location: Madison, WI
- Contact:
Re: Actually I find this is more true
>_<Savia wrote:As he said 'episodes', I assume he meant the TV series ^_~dwchang wrote:I somewhat agree for Kenshin *IF* you mean the TV series. If it's the manga, it ends beautifully.derek_t wrote: 3% "The (anime here) has a perfect ending and then goes on 10 episodes too long" (Eva and Kenshin)
Yeah the manga kept going and I heard it got pretty good too.UncleMilo wrote:You can't blame His and Her Circumstances for its ending... the anime was supposed to continue... but it didn't. This happens sometimes... and not just in anime.
-Daniel
Newest Video: Through the Years and Far Away aka Sad Girl in Space
Newest Video: Through the Years and Far Away aka Sad Girl in Space
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derek_t
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2001 9:06 am
Ok my retort
On the episodes going on too long front. While I may of mistated how many episodes (it may only be about 6 too long) it still way too long. Nothing is learned at all of any substance, its all just mindless tecno-bable and philo-bable. The ending of the series is when Sinji leaves Nerv after he is forced to kill his friend, making the choice that it is better to destory mankind than be used for evil. I'm basing it on the fact that EOE most of the characters (I'll agree that red head does have some character devolopment in the movie thats it. The rest is well some of the worst philosophical writing I've seen since well Matrix Reloaded) are at the exact same point they were at before. Hell Sinji does exactly what he does in the episode mentioned above (I real have a problem with the way the writers clearly forced Sinji's character to not to develop until the final episodes). Oh wait I'm sorry, he did see someone he know growing watermellons causing him to come back. I'm sorry now it all makes sense.
As for Trigun. I'm sorry Vash saying "I'm taking responcibility for Knives" is not an ending. If another Trigun season or OAV come along to conclude what the ending seemed to be promising fine. The question of how Vash intends to take responciblility for Knives, will Knives reform, etc must be answered. Taking responcibility for someone is not just a feeling it has consequenes. The problem is the series seemed to be at a crossroads. I have no doubt Vash has a plan but I know its not "Sorry about the fact Knives order 10,000 people to die. I take responciblity". Your not going to be able to tell me that now Vash has captured Knives that everything is going to be ok. Hell, I think a big question must be "Does Vash even have the authority to take responcibility for someone elses actions?"
On His and Her Circumstantes. I'm just saying certain anime do just end and that was one (I believe Dragon Half is also another that just ends). I will say that it could of indeed had a conculsive ending if they didn't write not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, but five clip episodes. I mean 5!!!! Its only 26 episodes and 5 are clips of old shows.
As for Trigun. I'm sorry Vash saying "I'm taking responcibility for Knives" is not an ending. If another Trigun season or OAV come along to conclude what the ending seemed to be promising fine. The question of how Vash intends to take responciblility for Knives, will Knives reform, etc must be answered. Taking responcibility for someone is not just a feeling it has consequenes. The problem is the series seemed to be at a crossroads. I have no doubt Vash has a plan but I know its not "Sorry about the fact Knives order 10,000 people to die. I take responciblity". Your not going to be able to tell me that now Vash has captured Knives that everything is going to be ok. Hell, I think a big question must be "Does Vash even have the authority to take responcibility for someone elses actions?"
On His and Her Circumstantes. I'm just saying certain anime do just end and that was one (I believe Dragon Half is also another that just ends). I will say that it could of indeed had a conculsive ending if they didn't write not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, but five clip episodes. I mean 5!!!! Its only 26 episodes and 5 are clips of old shows.
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dwchang
- Sad Boy on Site
- Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:22 am
- Location: Madison, WI
- Contact:
Re: Ok my retort
If this is what you think, I seriously suggest you watch Evangelion again. you obviously missed the entire point of the show if it's just "techno bable and "philo-babble."derek_t wrote:On the episodes going on too long front. While I may of mistated how many episodes (it may only be about 6 too long) it still way too long. Nothing is learned at all of any substance, its all just mindless tecno-bable and philo-bable. The ending of the series is when Sinji leaves Nerv after he is forced to kill his friend, making the choice that it is better to destory mankind than be used for evil. I'm basing it on the fact that EOE most of the characters (I'll agree that red head does have some character devolopment in the movie thats it. The rest is well some of the worst philosophical writing I've seen since well Matrix Reloaded) are at the exact same point they were at before. Hell Sinji does exactly what he does in the episode mentioned above (I real have a problem with the way the writers clearly forced Sinji's character to not to develop until the final episodes). Oh wait I'm sorry, he did see someone he know growing watermellons causing him to come back. I'm sorry now it all makes sense.
Oh and also, learn how to spell. His name is SHINJI..with an H.
Were you even watching the same show?derek_t wrote:The ending of the series is when Sinji leaves Nerv after he is forced to kill his friend, making the choice that it is better to destory mankind than be used for evil.
-Daniel
Newest Video: Through the Years and Far Away aka Sad Girl in Space
Newest Video: Through the Years and Far Away aka Sad Girl in Space
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UncleMilo
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:41 pm
- Location: Southern California
- Contact:
First off, if the views you are posting are actual, then you have no business commenting on what is good or bad philosophical writing because you clearly missed a lot of very important points in both the Evangelion TV show and the Trigun show.
So...
SPOILER TIME
TRIGUN
The whole situation here is that Vash is a walking contradiction. As was painted so clearly in the flashback, he wants to be able to save both the spider and the butterfly. He wants to find a way of solving problems without killing. Knives is Vash's obstacle, as Knives takes the simple, brutal approach... if there is a problem, you destroy it. If there's people in your way, you kill them. Knives hates Vash's worldview, but Knives also suffers from the fact that Vash is the only other like him... and Knives sends all these people after Vash NOT because he wants to kill Vash, but because he wants to prove to Vash that his way is the only way... that Vash's path is silly and naive. Vash is almost convinced... he almost comes to the conclusion that the only way to deal wih Knives is to kill him... but Vash, in the end, stays true to his philosophy... he takes the last words of Rem to heart. In the end, he will "take care of Knives." He will help teach Knives that there are other solutions to problems then resorting to murder, violence and destruction. He will teach Knives that Humans, while often being contradictive in their lives, are valuable people and that much can be learned from them.
In the end, the show is really telling us that we should try to find ways of making peace with out enemies... to try to overcome our own inner "animal instincts" of violence, anger and resentment to try to build a better future...
And when Vash makes the choice to get past his anger and resentment of what Knives had done and to help teach Knives this lesson... well, look... the townspeople succeed in making the well... water comes to the barren town... life has a chance to move forward. SO, yes... so long as we work toward a better future rather than just falling back on resentment and hostility, there is hope.
EVANGELION
The whole story of Evangelion is about Shinji. The confrontation between NERV and the Angels is just a surface story that helps paint a picture of who the characters are so that we can better understand the true story. The story of Shinji growing from a weak, frightened child... who only finds life satisfaction in doing the things others ask of him... to an adult. At the end of the series, Shinji, with the help of lessos learned from other characters (and the things that happen to them over the course of the show) discovers the value of himself as an individual. He comes to understand that life is difficult, but that he is control of making his life be whatever it he wants it to be... if he want to see life as only bad... then his life will only be bad... if he can find the good in amongst the bad... he can find a better life... but all these choices are his... and this is a universal thing... so for all of us, the choices we make... the way we decide to look at life and the values we set become what our lives are...
Shinji realizes the value of himself as an individual. As the title of the episode says, he is "The Beast that Shouted I"
These are very short explanations, true, but I only have so much time to write...
I would say more, but that's all for now.
-Uncle Milo
So...
SPOILER TIME
TRIGUN
The whole situation here is that Vash is a walking contradiction. As was painted so clearly in the flashback, he wants to be able to save both the spider and the butterfly. He wants to find a way of solving problems without killing. Knives is Vash's obstacle, as Knives takes the simple, brutal approach... if there is a problem, you destroy it. If there's people in your way, you kill them. Knives hates Vash's worldview, but Knives also suffers from the fact that Vash is the only other like him... and Knives sends all these people after Vash NOT because he wants to kill Vash, but because he wants to prove to Vash that his way is the only way... that Vash's path is silly and naive. Vash is almost convinced... he almost comes to the conclusion that the only way to deal wih Knives is to kill him... but Vash, in the end, stays true to his philosophy... he takes the last words of Rem to heart. In the end, he will "take care of Knives." He will help teach Knives that there are other solutions to problems then resorting to murder, violence and destruction. He will teach Knives that Humans, while often being contradictive in their lives, are valuable people and that much can be learned from them.
In the end, the show is really telling us that we should try to find ways of making peace with out enemies... to try to overcome our own inner "animal instincts" of violence, anger and resentment to try to build a better future...
And when Vash makes the choice to get past his anger and resentment of what Knives had done and to help teach Knives this lesson... well, look... the townspeople succeed in making the well... water comes to the barren town... life has a chance to move forward. SO, yes... so long as we work toward a better future rather than just falling back on resentment and hostility, there is hope.
EVANGELION
The whole story of Evangelion is about Shinji. The confrontation between NERV and the Angels is just a surface story that helps paint a picture of who the characters are so that we can better understand the true story. The story of Shinji growing from a weak, frightened child... who only finds life satisfaction in doing the things others ask of him... to an adult. At the end of the series, Shinji, with the help of lessos learned from other characters (and the things that happen to them over the course of the show) discovers the value of himself as an individual. He comes to understand that life is difficult, but that he is control of making his life be whatever it he wants it to be... if he want to see life as only bad... then his life will only be bad... if he can find the good in amongst the bad... he can find a better life... but all these choices are his... and this is a universal thing... so for all of us, the choices we make... the way we decide to look at life and the values we set become what our lives are...
Shinji realizes the value of himself as an individual. As the title of the episode says, he is "The Beast that Shouted I"
These are very short explanations, true, but I only have so much time to write...
I would say more, but that's all for now.
-Uncle Milo
There are two kinds of people in this world:
Those who divide people into two kinds of groups
and those who don't.
Those who divide people into two kinds of groups
and those who don't.
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derek_t
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2001 9:06 am
Trigun and Eva
Ok first Trigun,
I understood everything that was said. This is where things go wrong with that ending. "He will help teach Knives that there are other solutions to problems then resorting to murder, violence and destruction. He will teach Knives that Humans, while often being contradictive in their lives, are valuable people and that much can be learned from them." You are making a big assumuntion that this is teachable. It may be teachable I not saying Vash is wrong in his way. My complaint isn't that the series ended with Vash choosing not to kill. What am I saying is that the assumtion that just because Vash says "I'm going to teach him this" means Knives will learn it, is false. Knives may indeed agree with Vash or of course he could choose to ignore and continue as he has done before. This is what has to be followed. We have to see how Vash chooses to teach and we have to see how Knives reacts and learns or rejects. To just assume that Vash will turn Knives around is wrong. For someone who complains about me missing the point of the show, you sure did miss the point of my post.
On Eva, once again I did get the point of it. And as I said it was made earlier. I believe its episode 19. After Shinji is forced to kill his friend in the Eva that turned angel (and don't try telling me he survived, in the future there is still no cure for that much blood loss). Shinji chooses to be an individual. He choose to finally stop looking for other people to accept him. And then what occurs, he sees someone growing watermelons and goes back. I'm sorry the show clearly should end at this point. Don't believe me watch EOE and that episode. Notice Shinji basicly the exact same character in both.
Oh and dwchang, don't condesending me. There was a lot of "lets name them angels for no reason", "lets have objects from the bible appear for no reason", thats what is call philo-bable (actually its religio-bable). Look at UncleMilo if you want an idea of how to debate a post. He made his points clear on why he thought the ending was good (I don't understand why he thinks I want Vash to kill Knives though). What am I wrong on. Did Sinji not do what UncleMilo claims he did episodes earlier or not.
UncleMilo thanks for your critizisims. Can I ask now that I expanded on my points do you understand (if not agree) at least on where I am comming from.
I understood everything that was said. This is where things go wrong with that ending. "He will help teach Knives that there are other solutions to problems then resorting to murder, violence and destruction. He will teach Knives that Humans, while often being contradictive in their lives, are valuable people and that much can be learned from them." You are making a big assumuntion that this is teachable. It may be teachable I not saying Vash is wrong in his way. My complaint isn't that the series ended with Vash choosing not to kill. What am I saying is that the assumtion that just because Vash says "I'm going to teach him this" means Knives will learn it, is false. Knives may indeed agree with Vash or of course he could choose to ignore and continue as he has done before. This is what has to be followed. We have to see how Vash chooses to teach and we have to see how Knives reacts and learns or rejects. To just assume that Vash will turn Knives around is wrong. For someone who complains about me missing the point of the show, you sure did miss the point of my post.
On Eva, once again I did get the point of it. And as I said it was made earlier. I believe its episode 19. After Shinji is forced to kill his friend in the Eva that turned angel (and don't try telling me he survived, in the future there is still no cure for that much blood loss). Shinji chooses to be an individual. He choose to finally stop looking for other people to accept him. And then what occurs, he sees someone growing watermelons and goes back. I'm sorry the show clearly should end at this point. Don't believe me watch EOE and that episode. Notice Shinji basicly the exact same character in both.
Oh and dwchang, don't condesending me. There was a lot of "lets name them angels for no reason", "lets have objects from the bible appear for no reason", thats what is call philo-bable (actually its religio-bable). Look at UncleMilo if you want an idea of how to debate a post. He made his points clear on why he thought the ending was good (I don't understand why he thinks I want Vash to kill Knives though). What am I wrong on. Did Sinji not do what UncleMilo claims he did episodes earlier or not.
UncleMilo thanks for your critizisims. Can I ask now that I expanded on my points do you understand (if not agree) at least on where I am comming from.
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Propyro
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:09 am
- Location: Ontario
Re: Trigun and Eva
umm, Shinji didn't do anythign ... he was going to let teh angel kill him, and at this point he didn't even knwo that it was toji inside. Gendo killed Shinji's control of unit 01 and turned on the dummy pilot, and forced his son to watch unit 01 rip unit 03 to peices. And in the anime i belive they said Toji lived, but he never cambe back into the series ... I haven't watched eva in a long time and it's due for a rewatching some time soon. Also if you remember when he found out it was Toji in the eva he wen't nuts and threatened to destroy NERV headquarters ... at which point they pulled the plug on him.derek_t wrote:On Eva, once again I did get the point of it. And as I said it was made earlier. I believe its episode 19. After Shinji is forced to kill his friend in the Eva that turned angel (and don't try telling me he survived, in the future there is still no cure for that much blood loss).
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samurairyu
- Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:38 pm
- Location: Missoula, MT
Re: Ok my retort
If you were reaing in Hindi it would be Sinjidwchang wrote:If this is what you think, I seriously suggest you watch Evangelion again. you obviously missed the entire point of the show if it's just "techno bable and "philo-babble."derek_t wrote:On the episodes going on too long front. While I may of mistated how many episodes (it may only be about 6 too long) it still way too long. Nothing is learned at all of any substance, its all just mindless tecno-bable and philo-bable. The ending of the series is when Sinji leaves Nerv after he is forced to kill his friend, making the choice that it is better to destory mankind than be used for evil. I'm basing it on the fact that EOE most of the characters (I'll agree that red head does have some character devolopment in the movie thats it. The rest is well some of the worst philosophical writing I've seen since well Matrix Reloaded) are at the exact same point they were at before. Hell Sinji does exactly what he does in the episode mentioned above (I real have a problem with the way the writers clearly forced Sinji's character to not to develop until the final episodes). Oh wait I'm sorry, he did see someone he know growing watermellons causing him to come back. I'm sorry now it all makes sense.
Oh and also, learn how to spell. His name is SHINJI..with an H.
Were you even watching the same show?derek_t wrote:The ending of the series is when Sinji leaves Nerv after he is forced to kill his friend, making the choice that it is better to destory mankind than be used for evil.
And I'm gonna hafta agree with Derek_T. Although I love Eva, we really don't need to see 500 almost random images flashing for 10 minutes. I think what's his name got his hash pipe mixed up with his crack pipe that day.
The series could have ended somewhere around ep 23 or so, of course that is assuming that they would want a relatively generic ending. I think the real reason it went on so long was that they didn't want the show to be just another giant robot post-apockolyptic shootout. They seemed to want it to have all the emotional bagage and philosophical hoodoo that sets it apart from the others.
Although...
Am I the only one who thinks Shinji was a little bitch that just wanted his mommy(carnally apparently in the case of Rei
) and who needed a good ass-kickin 
He let Misato die!
MISATO!!!BIG NO!!!!!!!!
the second part of the above is a direct quote from Pedro(Excel Saga)
...no fear no sadness!
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Propyro
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 9:09 am
- Location: Ontario
Re: Ok my retort
it was herrorin, not crack ...samurairyu wrote:
If you were reaing in Hindi it would be Sinji
And I'm gonna hafta agree with Derek_T. Although I love Eva, we really don't need to see 500 almost random images flashing for 10 minutes. I think what's his name got his hash pipe mixed up with his crack pipe that day.
and he killed Misato because she was everyones favorite character. People were bothering him to "fix" the ending and put more development in Auska and Misato, so he did ... but liek adeal wiht the devil youget everythign you wanted, but it jsut goes totlay wrong. hence why Misato dies and Auska gets the living shit kicked out of her. I'm glad Anno(sp) did it it's what people get for being such fucking retards. though because of them we did end up with in interesting peice of film.
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