To lipsync or not to lipsync, that is the question...

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

You're classic, you really are. I'm sure you can read me like a book. ^_^

*shrugs*

Believe as you like, it's not really of any particular consequence to me.

Anyway, if you were a trained pyschologist you'd know that subjectivity has a large part in any real perfection.

No, it really doesn't. I mean it's like you have circles and then you have PERFECT circles. One takes effort, the other does not. One might be more subjectively appealing to one person, but that does have any bearing on the true level of skill that it took to make it. Some people enjoy my videos, others do not, but neither of those subjective opinions has to do with the level of editing that was put into making it.

What's the point of an effect if nobody likes it?

Are you saying nobody likes my work? Cause uh, I like and uh, the opinions of it so far seem to indicate liking too. Not really sure what your point is.

It's like you've lost this argument on a pure editing standpoint so now you're all trying to argue semantics and saying that subjectively Beowulfs work is better than mine...but uh, well I hate to be redundant, but that's a subjective argument.

Anyway, you can keep arguing at me if you like since you're clearly too deluded to think coherently. I bid you goodnight.

Argue with you? How could I possibly argue with you when you don't even HAVE an argument in the first place? Your entire stance in this thread has gone from:

You don't see very much of your style in other AMVs, therefore I'm going to jump to the conclusion that's it's just not good (never mind the fact that my style isn't something that's very easily copied).

And then you're all like finger pointing and side stepping around the REAL issues by claiming I'm an arrogant son of a bitch. Yeah, free cl00, I openly admit to being an arrogant son of a bitch, but what the hell does that have to do with the comparison of Beowulf's and my editing skills?

And then of course in this last post you're desperately trying to backpedal your way out of the debate by trying to claim that it's all subjective, despite the fact that, well, I just proved that it wasn't.

How WILL you respond next? Maybe you won't, maybe you'll just realize you're in WAY over your head and will just drop it. Then again maybe being verbally smacked up long side your head with the truth will make you REALLY agitated and you'll continue in this rather poinless endeavr to "get back" at me. *snicker* Yeah, good luck with that! ^_^

[downwithpants]

This topic needs to be locked. For one thing, editing ability does not equate to credibility.

But I'd like to make two points to Onideus_Mad_Hatter:

To be perfectly blunt with you, my opinion *IS* the only opinion that matters. I know my art far better than any of you ever could even dream of. I know just how much effort it took, I know just how well it was put together, I even know every single lil flaw in it, no matter how small. My opinion *IS* the only opinion that matters. Whether some lame artist who can appreciate advanced style and design can see it or not really doesn't matter much on the whole.

I had made the following point in an earlier thread:

How good a video or any product as an art form is a subjective evaluation that depends on the opinion of the masses. The only reason we consider an artist(s) good, take for example, the Beatles, is because their music is good in the opinions of the masses. There is little objective quality about their music-- all it is is patterns of fluctutations in air pressure. If the Beatles thought they were great, and nobody else did, then they would not be a 'good' band.

This is why the rating system exists: to measure the opinions of the people who have watched your video and bothered to submit their views. While it may be true that the creator has the most comprehensive knowledge of his or her own video, it does not mean the creator can judge the popularity of his or her own video. If the quality of the video depended only on the opinion of the creator, there would be no use for the rating system -- instead Phade would have just set it up so that the video creators just entered their opinions of their videos along with video information and not have bothered to create a rating system.

If someone who was actually REALLY GOOD at making AMVs gave me some ideas and suggestions I'd certainly consider them, but a whole load of "Yer stuff...um...sucks...cause it just does..." Yeah, that's really not impressing me.

Upon reading the opinions of your videos, I have found that reviewers have given you plenty of constructive criticism with specific references. Your responses to their criticism have in turn been completely subjective and personal, not to mention vulgar. That is, you base your arguments on your conceptions of the reviewer, rather than specific references of your own video. I hope you realize that the only way you can improve as an artist is to consider the opinions of others rather than neglect them.

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

MORTAL KOMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT !

...FATALITY!

Onideus_Mad_Hatter, I know someone like you. An elitist for movies. He doesn't like blockbusters because everyone else love them. Not because these movie suck, only because they are successful.
This is what I think you do with AMVs.

Not really, there are lots of good AMVs out there. Some stuff is obviously over hyped, but whether it is or not doesn't really have any bearing on my opinions. The difference between me and most AMV creators is that I actively try my hardest NOT to be liked. ^_^

IMO this is stupid, but there are lots of people like you...usually they don't show publicly that they suck, though...

You claim I suck, yet you admit to not having actually seen any of my work...interesting.

Something that would help me to know what you call "good" amvs would be if you gave other examples than your own creations...because I haven't seen yours.
So, what is your style ? Is there an AMV in the top10% that you like ? or a famous amv ?

Well if you really wanted to see my style you could actually take the time to look at my work. I specifically recommend watching the "making of" video for "Forever", it's rather insightful as to the level of editing I do.

As far as other videos I like, which are similar in style as far as matching pure animation to the beat of the music, well there's Akashio's "Tiny Tike Smackdown", it's pretty popular. A REALLY great AMV, which not only combines animation synch but flash bang effects as well is JCD's "BrEAkDaNcE".

Here's some links:

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... php?v=4394

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... hp?v=10263

Some others, which aren't necesarily indicative of my style, but nonetheless quite good are Nogana Naishi's AMV of Battle Athletes that uses the song "Better, Faster, Stronger"...uh...although I don't think he's actually released that, I think he's still working on it. Hey if you're reading this Nogana and you haven't finished it yet, wtf? Another really good work in progress, and I don't know the guys name, but he started an AMV using Full Metal Panic and the Linkin Park song Faint. He only had the first 30 seconds or so done but it was lookin really sweet.

On the popular side obviously there's Eternal Damnation, the head motion lip synching done in the very first couple seconds is quite excellent. Caldwell's Engle is also quite good, although lacking in video quality and skimpin on the lip synching when it came to head and background motion scenes it was quite revolutionary considering it's release date.

You're probably the best amv editor in the world, but is it a good thing if nobody want to watch them only because you get on everyone's nerves ? If other creators' opinions are useless to you, why did you join this website ? Why do you share your videos ?

To get better. By acting like an arrogant asshole I can get people to critique my work 10 times harder than they normally would, I can get them to nitpick over every last litte flaw, which then in turns gives me a reason to try and do better. If I was nice to people and they just appreciated my work and gave me all really high scores, well then there really wouldn't be much point to sharing my videos, aside from catering to the people who find them asthetically pleasing. I've actually got quite a few favorites like that myself, AMVs that while aren't technically superior as far as editing, make me personally feel certain things.

And for the effects, there are some videos that need effects in order to work...because even with the most talented creator (you for example), people who watch the video DON'T SEE that everything flows well, and become bored before the end of the video.

And blindsiding the person with a constant barrage of inane flashing somehow makes them not bored? o_O

I think what you're describing is more along the lines of whether the person likes it on a subjective level. I mean I've watched some AMVs that I really didn't find all that appealing (lots of which where I just didn't like the anime series used), but I still found them appealing on an editing standpoint.

Go ahead, reply to my post as you did for the others...show me your skills at useless flaming...

As I said before to someone else, I tend to mirror and reflect the emotions and style of the person I'm replying to. `, )

[Onideus_Mad_Hatter]

This topic needs to be locked.

Why? Is there a group of people out there forcing others to read it against their will? Or do you think the .org is just better off with some random stabing of censorship? Speaking from the perspective of someone who has spent countless years studying people and communities online, trust me, it's better to let people openly express themselves. Censoring them in essence forces people to bottle up their true feelings which then in turn build up even greater and then things just explode.

For one thing, editing ability does not equate to credibility.

How so? I mean if Stephen Hawking or some 3rd grade astronomy teacher told you that the a giant meteor was gonna smash into the planet and kill everyone...who would you be more likely to believe? Ability, understanding, experience, they ALL equate to credibility. It may not be the happiest point of reality to have to face, but it is quite true, I can give you as many more examples of it happening every day if you like.

But I'd like to make two points to Onideus_Mad_Hatter:

I had made the following point in an earlier thread:

How good a video or any product as an art form is a subjective evaluation that depends on the opinion of the masses. The only reason we consider an artist(s) good, take for example, the Beatles, is because their music is good in the opinions of the masses. There is little objective quality about their music-- all it is is patterns of fluctutations in air pressure. If the Beatles thought they were great, and nobody else did, then they would not be a 'good' band.

From a subjective stand point, yes. However there *IS* objective points. For instance let's say you have two artists, one spatters paint on to a canvas and calls it art. The other painstaking makes photo realistic art that could easily match any photograph. While the two styles of art may be subjective, as far as true effort, ability, and work, they are light years apart. ANYONE can splatter paint onto a canvas, but how many people can create photorealistic art? You see, that is the true objective test of skill. In this thread, we aren't talking about the asthetics of Beowulf's AMVs compared to mine, we are debating the true level of editing and skill that it took to make the AMVs. A subject which is VERY MUCH objective.

Upon reading the opinions of your videos, I have found that reviewers have given you plenty of constructive criticism with specific references. Your responses to their criticism have in turn been completely subjective and personal, not to mention vulgar.

Ahhh yes, the opinions of my AMVs...gosh I sure like the one where the person is all like, "You used too much of that space battle." o_O

That's not a subjective or objective observation, that's just plain stupid. I mean, the whole AMV is ABOUT that particular space battle...how could I have used too much of it? I mean that's like a guy watches a documentary about humpback whales and then is like, "There were too many damn whales in it." You see my point?

That is, you base your arguments on your conceptions of the reviewer, rather than specific references of your own video.

Can you give me an example of where I did this? Really, I'd like to know.

I hope you realize that the only way you can improve as an artist is to consider the opinions of others rather than neglect them.

Have you actually seen any of my work? You know the old version of "Twist Of", entitled "Plenipotentiary" should still be up for download, why not do a lil comparison of your own, see if my work has improved. o_O

[WilLoW :--)]

You claim I suck, yet you admit to not having actually seen any of my work...interesting.

Uh, sorry, I wasn't precise enough here. I meant your "mentality" about the way AMV should be. Not your work.

Well if you really wanted to see my style you could actually take the time to look at my work. I specifically recommend watching the "making of" video for "Forever", it's rather insightful as to the level of editing I do.

I will watch your videos. I just happen to be at work now, and I don't know when I will have the time to download them.
Thanks for the links to other videos too

You're probably the best amv editor in the world, but is it a good thing if nobody want to watch them only because you get on everyone's nerves ? If other creators' opinions are useless to you, why did you join this website ? Why do you share your videos ?

To get better. By acting like an arrogant asshole I can get people to critique my work 10 times harder than they normally would, I can get them to nitpick over every last litte flaw, which then in turns gives me a reason to try and do better. [...]

That makes sense. I now understand. But it's a bit disturbing for me
I mean, improving your skills is a really good thing, and that's true that many reviews are not totally honest, depending on the creator who made them, but we're also here for fun, to meet people we like, and so on...
By acting like an "arrogant asshole" I think you lose all this interesting part of the amv community. But that's only my point of view.

[WilLoW :--)]

From a subjective stand point, yes. However there *IS* objective points. For instance let's say you have two artists, one spatters paint on to a canvas and calls it art. The other painstaking makes photo realistic art that could easily match any photograph. While the two styles of art may be subjective, as far as true effort, ability, and work, they are light years apart. ANYONE can splatter paint onto a canvas, but how many people can create photorealistic art? You see, that is the true objective test of skill. In this thread, we aren't talking about the asthetics of Beowulf's AMVs compared to mine, we are debating the true level of editing and skill that it took to make the AMVs. A subject which is VERY MUCH objective.

That's an interesting problem...
Do you think people will actually see all the effort put in the photorealistic one if it's so perfect that we believe it's a real photograph ?
When an effect is so perfect that nobody see it, of course it's a great work, but it's not worth mentionning it, because people won't see it...

Do you see what I mean here ? When the work is too perfect, we can't even see there were difficulites making it...too bad isn't it ? But that's the way it works...

This is true for AMVs...how could we know that you edited Sakura frame by frame and made a perfect work when we never watched the series ? (I don't want to give too much examples here before I see your video, but you see my point...)

Another example : the day 3D movies will look like real movies (like final fantasy the movie, but something where everything's perfect...), will it be interesting ? No. Of course there will be lots of effort put in it, but if the movie itself is not interesting because of the scenario, or because the audience doesn't like romance movies anymore, etc...it will lack interest, and only its creators will really know the effort they put in it.

So yes, I agree with downWithPants. Effort != editing skills, and editing skills are also characterized by the impact your video has on a crowd. If the crowd likes flashy effects, then as a skilled editor you know how to make them have an orgasm, and - when your goal is to make videos people enjoy - you do it.
Here I go again with the discussion about making the amvs for yourself or for the other ... If you want to improve using other people's comments, then of course you'll improve in the way OTHER people want you to... so there's a paradox in your behaviour here I think.

[downwithpants]

This topic needs to be locked.

Why?

Because it's getting terribly off-topic. If you want to talk about why your videos are better than Beowulf's start a new topic in one of the Off Topic forums. It wasn't asrrin's intent to start a debate between you and Beowulf.

For one thing, editing ability does not equate to credibility.

How so?

There are people who have experience (thus credibility) in video editing (perhaps they do professional editing or they have experience watching AMVs) but either have not made their own videos (lack of interest/lack of resources), or are just are not good in making them.

But I'd like to make two points to Onideus_Mad_Hatter:

I had made the following point in an earlier thread:

How good a video or any product as an art form is a subjective evaluation that depends on the opinion of the masses.

From a subjective stand point, yes. However there *IS* objective points. For instance let's say you have two artists, one spatters paint on to a canvas and calls it art. The other painstaking makes photo realistic art that could easily match any photograph. While the two styles of art may be subjective, as far as true effort, ability, and work, they are light years apart. ANYONE can splatter paint onto a canvas, but how many people can create photorealistic art? You see, that is the true objective test of skill. In this thread, we aren't talking about the asthetics of Beowulf's AMVs compared to mine, we are debating the true level of editing and skill that it took to make the AMVs. A subject which is VERY MUCH objective.

The value of art is not the amount of effort and skill we believe the artist put in. That is only the appreciation of the art, not its value.
Example: I could spend my entire life studying painting, and as the culmination of my studies, I could paint a picture with such intricacy and skill that no one else would be able to paint another picture one like it. However, suppose this picture depicted and glorified a scene of rape, and rape was, in the opinion of the masses, immoral. While the masses might appreciate the effort I put into making it, they would still consider my painting bad because they might believe it encourages rape.

Upon reading the opinions of your videos, I have found that reviewers have given you plenty of constructive criticism with specific references.

Ahhh yes, the opinions of my AMVs...gosh I sure like the one where the person is all like, "You used too much of that space battle." o_O

I was referring to:

The concept was semi original, although other than that, I do not see anything worth going on about here... There's a lack of any real sync or cohesion to hold the concept together... The video had very little concrete editing or any effects... Although all the effects that were done were quite poorly executed, when fading out from a white transparency, the layer should not dissapear in a flash like that, it's not condusive to the rest of the fades in the video or the overall feeling of serenity and peace that the video was going for... Originality: It's CCS and a sentimental character profile, nothing new here, although the fact that it was all manipulated did add a little bit of bang...

Capture/Output Quality: I know DVD/DivX footage when I see
it, shame on you for not buying such a great series... Sound Quality: I was able to detect heavy artifacting on the left percussion channel, and the fact that the audio was upsampled from 44kHz to 48kHz (Why? Are you looking for quality from your downloaded MP3 that isn't there?) put this video's sound quality way down...Action / Editing Sync: The only instances of sync I could see were the fades in the beginning, hardly anything to get excited over, and hardly anything to give you over a 1 for either. Lip Sync: There were a few instances where your lips synched quite well, although the conscenus is that many of the scenes looked off a few frames or totally wrong. The fact that words are being sung is something to be weary off when making a video, you cannot sing without your mouth opened wide, and in several cases, the mouth positions did not seem natural...

it feels ridgid and robotic while it's trying to be emotional and tug at the heartstrings of the viewer

These are some of the best opinions I've seen on the Org. They refer to specific problems of your videos, and in some cases, offer solutions.

That is, you base your arguments on your conceptions of the reviewer, rather than specific references of your own video.

Can you give me an example of where I did this? Really, I'd like to know.

Here are a few:

Who the fuck do you think you're kidding, Moron? ... Just how stupid are you? ... Retarded Much? ... Apparently you suffer from ADD er something cause the whole thing was blended together perfectly... Call you an idiot, there were no blank black screen parts...well unless you're as stupid as I think you are and just couldn't figure it the fuck out how to press the "play" button on yer video software... Oh yeah, you're just pulling shit out of your ass cause yer a bitter little clusterfuck who can't stand people who are better than you are... Free cl00, Dumbass, those effects don't require any more effort than a few mouse clicks in the transitions menu in Adobe Premiere...Another free cl00, Stupid, it's not an action video. *rolls eyes* The stupidity of some people is just...AMAZING when you really think about it...Amazing, this retard is actually speaking about my AMV as if HE was the one making it. Uh, hello, McFly, it wasn't trying to show serenity and peace, it was trying to show sadness and depression. Did you even WATCH the AMV? o_O ... Tell me, Stupid, when you dream, are there nice lil slow fade outs? *shakes head* Why is it no surprise to me that this kid hasn't ever made an AMV? ... Seems pretty fuckin original to me, Retard... Shame on you for being a stepping stone for the success of others. And uh, a 4? Who the fuck do you think you're kidding?...Just how fucking retarded are you?... Retard, pay the fuck more attention next time...Oh yeah, you're full of shit, I forgot... And let's face it, that's all your lil critique here is, a failing little attempt at trying to get at me, either cause you're just a bitter little ass itch whose mad at the world for being better than you'll ever be, or because I pissed in your Cheerios at some point or destroyed some pathetic little community you were partial to...Another free cl00, Retard, ... but apparently all that work was just lost on all the REALLY fucking retarded morons like yourself... or maybe you're just desperate to try and say something bad about work that someone of your FAILING talent will never be able to produce...Well I'm sure that most people are quite happy that they have your dumbass to try and speak for them. Overall, I'm just not impressed by you in the least bit. I mean you bounce on here after being a member for like a fucking week and a half, not one AMV to your name, and you start spouting shit about my work that has plot holes the size of fuckin Tripoli. *snicker* Yeah, maybe if you were an actual editor or someone who wasn't just a talentless fuck with a hotmail account I *might* be able to sum up enough effort to actually consider taking your worthless tripe of an opinion serious...but yeah, fraid I can't really do that. So instead I'll just make an example out of you and leave your opinion on here where everyone can see just what a fucking joke you really are.

I hope you realize that the only way you can improve as an artist is to consider the opinions of others rather than neglect them.

Have you actually seen any of my work? You know the old version of "Twist Of", entitled "Plenipotentiary" should still be up for download, why not do a lil comparison of your own, see if my work has improved. o_O

Improving as a video editor is not the same as improving as an artist. To become a better artist, you need to know what your audience wants and doesn't want.

[Otohiko]

To become a REALLY good artist, you have to give your audience what it wants but doesn't realize it wants.

Now stop strange arguments. I mean, WTF, other than time constraints, I see no reason someone shouldn't not try lip-sync - and, if it doesn't work, just forget it and go back to where you were before.

Talk, talk, talk. Too much talk.

[MOD467: This is about as good advice as any about whether or not to lip synch. Thread locked to avoid more useless bickering.]