Is there even a purpose to the sound rating?

General discussion of Anime Music Videos
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downwithpants
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Post by downwithpants » Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:01 pm

Zarxrax wrote: If its some shit like windows media, I might give like a 5.
I've ripped in WMA lossless. It sounds better than most my mp3s (granted its over 5x larger). but yeah, I wouldn't trust WMA 128 kbps and below.

but sound doesn't deserve the same weight as effort, action sync, originality. - ripping a song takes a matter of seconds.
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Scintilla
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Post by Scintilla » Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:50 pm

downwithpants wrote:I've ripped in WMA lossless. It sounds better than most my mp3s (granted its over 5x larger). but yeah, I wouldn't trust WMA 128 kbps and below.
From the WMAs I've heard, it certainly sounds better than MP3 at 128 and below...

... but Ogg Vorbis sounds even better. :D
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Post by Warpwind » Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:28 am

I mark audio down if it...

Is too quiet or too loud (yes I know I could just turn the volume up or down but bottom line it should be around the same decibel range of your average CD)
Has any pops or clicks
Staggers and goes out of sync with the video (should I pause and restart the video clip)
If they have edited the audio and done a bad job of it (ie cuts out suddenly)
If for some strange reason the audio is in mono rather than stereo (other than if is a song I am unfamiliar with in which case I am unsure if there is a stereo verison in existance)
If it is an instrumental/orchestra song then it is less likely to score highly with me since it's easier for me to hear flaws with the sound quality. A lot of older instrumental music has had the copywright on it expire (or it never existed) and now any two-bit band/orchestra can record it and produce a CD. If someone didn't bother to get a nice recording of some music readily available music why should I grade it high?

I grade audio higher if...

The audio is edited and they did a great job. So I can barely tell where it was altered or they faded in and out of different tracks.
There are no flaws, pops, clicks, staggers, mono
If its crisp and clear and at reasonable volume

Still there really is little reason in our present digital age why people shouldn't get high scores here. I still think it does have some value as a score though. I wouldn't like to lump it with capture quality since then I'd have a problem giving a video with shitty capture a bad score cause the sound is fine or vice versa.

Meh, anyway I guess my main point is there is lots of stuff you can look at in regards to Audio quality it's just that in the majority of cases most people are fine. And shouldn't we be pleased with that? Isn't it bad engough we have to sit through videos with bad capture quality and subs?

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Post by Kai Stromler » Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:46 pm

My system, allowing complete range of scores 1-10. Note that this may not be applicable to others without as much audio experience.

10. I am sitting in the prod booth as the pre-master is being played back by the band, or in the front row five feet from a PA cabinet if the song is a live take. The song has obviously been recovered or enhanced beyond the limitations of the CD-audio format, which as audiophiles know are pretty hefty. Any editing is seamless and the result sounds and flows better than the original arrangement. Stereo channels are utilized to good effect. As would appear, I don't give out 10s often.

9. The audio sounds like a CD. I can hear two distinct stereo channels, even if it's largely the same sound in both. This is pretty much the default rating.

8. There is something wrong with the audio, but it's pretty minor. Perhaps it's been mixed weird to push up the mids as opposed to the highs and lows, or the original recording quality was poor. Very well done recoveries from old LPs will land around 8, because there's nearly always some noise associated with the analog format. Normal MP3s used as initial source usually top out around this level.

7. There is something wrong with the audio that shouldn't be, like clipped wave tops or a missing channel. This score is also associated with very clean movie-trailer audio, which will inevitably start 'crumpled' as a result of being from a distribution encode.

6. The original audio source is clearly sub-commercial; there is either unintended distortion or obvious audio artifacting which indicates that it is from a poorly encoded MP3. This level can also be earned by poor normalization: if it's inaudible or ear-bleeding at normal volumes and neither is useful to the video, it gets a 6.

5. The distortion patterns are characteristic of certain proprietary compression schemes. It's possible to make WMA and RealAudio sound good, but there was no effort put toward such here. Normal trailer sound also runs around 5 due to inevitable damage in the extraction and reencoding processes.

4. Multiple things are wrong here, such as bad normalization resulting in clipped waves. Many LPs and cassettes, due to age and media damage, will earn 4s without audio repair.

3. The audio sounds like the violent parts of Ulver's _Nattens Madrigal_, even though it wasn't the artist's original intent, nor the video's concept, to make the audio difficult to listen to. There was a piss-poor recording job done, and nothing done by the editor to clean up the soundprint. As an example, consider a song recorded by microphone from a playing radio, then converted to digital format without modification.

2. The audio seems to have been deliberately damaged. The volume is unpredictable, the signal cuts in and out, there is heavy static and distortion, and generally, the audio has been jumped on with football cleats. In this category are many public radio addresses released onto the web.

1. The audio track is either absent or completely full of sonic garbage, and there is evidence that the creator intended there to be music or other intelligible audio. Very few videos will get 1s, because sound this bad is almost always done so on purpose, and the audio will be reevaluated in the light of its effect on the overall concept.

I know that I've given at least one 10 and at least one 3, though no 2s or 1s yet, because, as described, it's almost as difficult to do those as it is to do enough mods to get a 10.

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Post by DJ_Izumi » Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:11 pm

10. I am sitting in the prod booth as the pre-master is being played back by the band, or in the front row five feet from a PA cabinet if the song is a live take. The song has obviously been recovered or enhanced beyond the limitations of the CD-audio format, which as audiophiles know are pretty hefty.
How in the holy hell do you enhance something from beyond 'CD Format' (When almost all PC audio editing programs must edit the audio in it's native resolution) when it has to be recompressed to a less-then-CD quality format for distribution?

You can't increase the frequency of an audio sample, you CAN upsample it, from say 44100hkz, to 48000khz, but very few audio formats even SUPPORT higher sample rates, not to mention up sampleling dosn't improve quality, it's like taking an 8 bit B&W Jpeg, changing it to 24bit color, it's still black and white it's just a hell of a lot bigger now...

I mean... Good god, it's IMPOSSABLE to get a 10 by your method.

Hell, you couldn't even tell if something was a studio mix, a mixing board STILL mixing everything into a stereo signal for the engineer to listin too...

Oh jesus, I'm flabbergasted agian. YOU GASTED MY FLABBER BY SLAPPING TOGETHER VARIOUS BUZZ WORDS AND USING NO LOGIC WHAT SO EVER! >.<
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Post by jonmartensen » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:11 pm

DJ_Izumi wrote:You can't increase the frequency of an audio sample, you CAN upsample it, from say 44100hkz, to 48000khz, but very few audio formats even SUPPORT higher sample rates, not to mention up sampleling dosn't improve quality, it's like taking an 8 bit B&W Jpeg, changing it to 24bit color, it's still black and white it's just a hell of a lot bigger now...
It's like taking a .tif image and adjusting the the hue and contrast to make the colors richer and make darker/lighter parts easier to distinguish. Then you compress it, for sharing on the web, as a jpeg (which looks slightly better than the original .tif image, even though it's a mush smaller file size).
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Post by Kai Stromler » Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:10 am

DJ_Izumi wrote: How in the holy hell do you enhance something from beyond 'CD Format' (When almost all PC audio editing programs must edit the audio in it's native resolution) when it has to be recompressed to a less-then-CD quality format for distribution?
You of all people should know that music doesn't magically occur onto CDs at certain limited sampling frequencies. We don't HAVE to deal with the constraints that Sony et al decided consumers would put up with back in 1981. Of course, it *is* exceedingly difficult to do so, but that's the way it should be. A population as large as this should follow a normal curve, so that a 10 is just as hard to achieve as a 1. If this is not the case, it's because of what you described in Nate's thread: people tend to review good videos and ignore less good ones. That, more than "grade inflation" on ops, is why the average score is somewhere around 8.

Audio recovery is exceedingly difficult, and most often isn't worth the effort for something on CD; there's just not enough difference between a 9 and a 10 to matter. I've only done recovery twice, in both cases when the original source was something at least one generation removed from vinyl (lo-fi mp3 from limited-release vinyl via room mic and mp3 from well-played cassete tape from 20-year-old vinyl, respectively), and the difference between these was the difference between a 4 or 5 and a 7. That's why there are other conditions. If the placement of the audio in the stereo channels is taken into account in the video, it'll get a higher mark (see iserlohn's work, he's usually quite on top of this). The same goes if the track has been edited, and the result sounds/flows better than the initial arrangement. AD does this all the time, and nobody notices the mods he's made.

Sorry for the pretension on the 'audio experience' bit; I just have musician's ears and have heard what the CD-format's limitations can do to my sound.

--K
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Post by DJ_Izumi » Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:20 am

You of all people should know that music doesn't magically occur onto CDs at certain limited sampling frequencies. We don't HAVE to deal with the constraints that Sony et al decided consumers would put up with back in 1981.
Yes, but it causes distribution hell. My SB Audigy supports up to 192 000hz, which is well higher then the 44 100hz that CDs use. But many machines could not make high nor hair of such a high sample rate, 48 000hz is the largest anyone should ever encode for when aiming for mass distribution.

As for CDs, we are bound by such a limitation for CD distribution, since most all CD players were only givin hardware and software to play specfic standards, much as how only certian DVD players can take VCDs or SVCDs, or even more freakish creations that me and TMPGEnc could spit out.

(On a side note: Never attempt an animorphic SVCD. Never.)
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Post by Kai Stromler » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:25 pm

:shock:

I didn't even think that SVCD supported anamorphic video...trying to set that up without (or with, for that matter) a copy of the specs at one's elbow....ouch.

This is why I just plays da bass and lets the hardware types

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Post by DJ_Izumi » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:33 pm

Well, it was more of an XSVCD then an SVCD, huh?

Basicly creating abnormal variations. For instance, the MP3 VCD worked without a hitch. Hah, a real ball to muliplex however. :X
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