First Amendment and the Ten Commandments

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azulmagia
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Post by azulmagia » Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:49 am

alternativefutures wrote:
Uh... our economic situation is far better than most of Europe, which has had far higher jobless rates on average than the US (6%? There used to be a time that was considered good!). The reason for the vast descrepancy in rich v poor isn't that the poor keep getting poorer, but instead we are home to the Bill Gateses of the world. Our jobs have been going over seas since the 1800's, yet we still have enough apparently to keep our jobless rate low and employ a significant number of illegal immigrants from South of the boarder. Oh, and we can't become a third world nation, simply because first and second worlds are defined as the US and (former) USSR spheres of influence respectively, dating back to the Cold War.

As for the Patriot act... it has indeed infringed on the 14th amendment, but I haven't seen where it infringes on the 1st. Could you please site the language? DMCA, on the other hand, as well as anti-spam legislation, most certainly does. That's kinda what I'm ranting about. The Constitution isn't some antiquated relic, it is vital to ensuring the people have access to the law. I'm trying to get people stired up here to see what has been going on for the past century (You think much has really changed in three years?) and why it has to stop. Let me tell you, the legislative and executive branches are not the big threats. They have passed laws and made policy infringing on the Constitution before that have fallen by the wayside time and again. The system is built to handle those kinds of abuses. It's the judiciary that has become the cancer growing in government.
The European solution to the post-Bretton Woods cannot be considered worse because unemployment there is higher than in America, only different. The European way is generally to preserve the most full-time jobs as is feasible (a way that does imply higher unemployment), the American (and Thatcherite) solution was to generate low paying "McJobs" and count forms of employment that were previously considered under-employment into full employment. Both systems do share the same feature that the definitions of what constititute unemployment keep getting revised to keep the numbers low. The "can't become a third world nation" is based on a simple linguistic trick and ignores the actual conditions of countries regarded respectively as "first" and "third" world nations, these names being as imaginary in themselves in the same way borders are imaginary lines.

Secondly, it doesn't even matter if there were full employment. You can't pay for "Defense", the Office of Homeland Security, the "War on Drugs", the prisons, tax breaks, and other sundry public services, all at once. Something has to give, the system cannot endure. Look at the size of the deficit. This is a public time bomb.

As for the Patriot Act, there is no real need to attack freedom of speech if you attack the conditions of free speech. Such as freedom from unreasonable searches, from indefinite incarceration without trial, from having one's phoned tapped, from having one's financial or medical records searched. To say that the act applies only to terrorists is useless, since the government decides who the terrorists or potential terrorists are. In the 1960s it was an article of faith among reactionaries that the counterculture and the peace movement had the Soviet Communists as its conspirators, hence the smear campaign against Dr. King, COINTELPRO and the NSA's Operation Shamrock. And that was in a liberal period.

As for the Constitution, I may have given the false impression that the amendments are the problem. The problem is that it is simply not democratic, nor was it intended to abet a democracy. Men like Adams Hamilton, Washington, Madison (Jefferson was the wild card, which does not mean he is any kind of key for a rethinking, that's been done to death) were products of the Enlightentment who believed that democracies invariably degenerate into despotisms. They were also opposed to one-man rule, and so designed it so the Constitution would abet an oligarchy of property owners and not allow for any kind of radical changes (which is needed now for years of want of moderate change; the rate of social and technological change was much lower then) such as the abolition of slavery. The Civil War was a direct result of this constitution and the fact that the Union was a chimera of free and slave states. The House cannot be changed in a stroke. They arranged so that the President is elected secondhand, by the Electoral College. As for the Senate, 66% of the population of the US is concentrated in 12 or 13 states, which means that 33% can control 75% of the Senatorial vote, which is minority rule, the more so since the Senate is a club of billionaires. The term limit on the President produces a lame duck immediately his second term is in effect; and as for the Vice President, that poor man is expected to be the heir apparent. And the whole thing rests on first-past the post system as opposed to proportional. The US is peculiar in that in most other industrialised countries, the state takes responsibility for voter registration, in the US it is the other way round. So the problem extends across all the branches of power. The founders believed an oligarchy could guarantee liberty, this may have applied then but not now since our understanding of human rights has progressed and needs democratic backing (indeed universal adult suffrage is one of those rights). Democracy means "rule of the people", not "choosing between a Coke candidate and a Pepsi candidate and giving him obscene power", and there is no way now to instantiate that principle, and what's worse, if we add the the numbers of the citizens who didn't vote to the votes for Gore, Nader etc. we must come to the conclusion that most of the people didn't want Bush in the first place (to say that an abstainer did not object to Bush by his abstention is a contradiction in terms), which is not enough a quantity of the people to be considered any kind of rule.

The legislative branch is of course, spineless, but that means they are useless in checking the executive, which appoints the judicial. The CIA is itself an infringement, since it is in practice not "checkable" by the legislative branch, with "national security" as a pretext. And the CIA has by no means fallen by the wayside, it's been here for 50 plus years, segragation lasted even longer, and the legislative and executive branches didn't move a finger against that until the fall of Nazi Germany made it inevitable. So none of these trends are the product of the last three years, the problem has been here for years, and is only now coming to fruition. The US has a government that is in fatal contradiction to the interests of its citizens, and has now adopted a policy of staying on top by means of aggressive war., and is run by a ideological mediocrity. All of this is justified by an ideology which is accepted by most citizens. The cancer is not a government but an entire ossified system, the whole country top to bottom, in institutions as well as in belief, and accepted by the people in general except for a few heretics. It cannot bend under pressure but can break, and the process has started. To not try for a different conception, a new institutions that will make democracy and freedom real under these circumstances is as romantic as a Roman to believe in the restoration of the pre-Augustan constitution, and only permits evasion of the basic issues regarding where the power really lies and what the public good consists of.

One final note.


GoldenGundam wrote:
It sure seems something like it. But we are not an empire because we don't have colonies and the such, just military bases and several commonwealths(or something like that).
Well, what is Iraq? "Temporarily occupied" doesn't cut it since Iraq has a certain natural resource, and there is no real difference to the Iraqis, as for most third worlders, in such distinctions. They know full well what the content of a "friendly" government, as Washington terms it, is, as sure as the Central Americans do. The entire modern definition owes its origin to a rationalization; since the US used to be subject to Britain, it knows firsthand that empires are wrong, so it avoids the form and preserves the content, and keeps the definition restricted to what other countries did/are doing/want to do. Just like the USSR never had any satellites, just "fraternal republics", and the Inquistion tortured anyone, they just "handed people over to the secular arm", and other such manifestations of Newspeak.[/i]

alternatefutures
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Post by alternatefutures » Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:52 am

I didn't say the cancer was "government", but the judicial branch, just as I said before that Congress != Government in reading the 1st amendment (BTW, the amendments you describe the Patriot Act violating are 4th and 14th, there is no violation of the 1st, although you do have to contend with what the definition of "unreasonable searches and seizures" is to say it violates the 4th). If the judicial branch was functioning (ie applying the law and not making it) delegation of legislative authority would have been ruled unconstitutional (no CIA) and so would the Patriot Act. Instead, the courts have usurped a power that lets them rule on what they WISHED the Constitution said. Since the Constitution is being ignored through no fault of its language it cannot be seen as the root of the problem, as logic would dictate that any attempt to replace it would eventually be ignored as well. Only public outrage can fix government. Public apathy is the problem.
"Temporarily occupied" doesn't cut it since Iraq has a certain natural resource,
Ah, yes, well, obviously the US should only be involved in those countries which have no resources. It's costing us one to two billion a MONTH to be in Iraq. If the oil was a factor in us being there we would have just let Saddam take Kuwait, taking him up on his proposal to be our gas station with dirt cheap prices, not spending more money than we would hope to get back. "Temporarily occupied" does indeed cut it.

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madmallard
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Post by madmallard » Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:02 pm

azulmagia wrote:
Secondly, it doesn't even matter if there were full employment. You can't pay for "Defense", the Office of Homeland Security, the "War on Drugs", the prisons, tax breaks, and other sundry public services, all at once. Something has to give, the system cannot endure. Look at the size of the deficit. This is a public time bomb.
It does matter depending on where the tax revenue is coming from. Have you looked at our tax structure? or tried to understand even one year of our tax code? the defecit isnt the biggest problem, its the knee jerk expansion of government and taxes to cover the defecit, rather than the cutting of fat.

However, the public has shown lately its less willing to put up with pussy footing. Jesse ventura and Ahhhnold are looking more appealing because they have fewer scruples compared to existing politician. Figures like that are looking more attractive, especially when the opposition keeps crying "how do we know they can run a state?" It just makes them look stupider because the opposition is who we're comparing it to, and it doesn't look good.

As for the Constitution, I may have given the false impression that the amendments are the problem. The problem is that it is simply not democratic, nor was it intended to abet a democracy.
right. . .it functions as a democratic republic. . .didn't know that was in dispute.
Men like Adams Hamilton, Washington, Madison (Jefferson was the wild card, which does not mean he is any kind of key for a rethinking, that's been done to death) were products of the Enlightentment who believed that democracies invariably degenerate into despotisms. They were also opposed to one-man rule, and so designed it so the Constitution would abet an oligarchy of property owners and not allow for any kind of radical changes (which is needed now for years of want of moderate change; the rate of social and technological change was much lower then) such as the abolition of slavery. The Civil War was a direct result of this constitution and the fact that the Union was a chimera of free and slave states.
Yet you're willing to throw out TJ? even though he was one of the the biggest oppositions to slavery in the forming of the constitution?
The House cannot be changed in a stroke. They arranged so that the President is elected secondhand, by the Electoral College. As for the Senate, 66% of the population of the US is concentrated in 12 or 13 states, which means that 33% can control 75% of the Senatorial vote, which is minority rule, the more so since the Senate is a club of billionaires.
That was by design . . .because a worldwide threat wasn't realistic to the new world all the way up to the civil war, the idea of a confederacy became increasingly attractive to those who made their livelihood and their standing on the suffering of others. . .in direct conflict to their neighbors ethical societal behavior.

they knew the initial union wouldn't hold without more stubborn state bodies being given either less restriction by the federal qualifications for the union, or by being given a bigger stake in it. Forming the senate was a compromise to that end in the beginning but was insufficient obviously to placate the system installed in the south. the south seceeded as a result instead of having a revolution.
The term limit on the President produces a lame duck immediately his second term is in effect; and as for the Vice President, that poor man is expected to be the heir apparent. And the whole thing rests on first-past the post system as opposed to proportional. The US is peculiar in that in most other industrialised countries, the state takes responsibility for voter registration, in the US it is the other way round. So the problem extends across all the branches of power. The founders believed an oligarchy could guarantee liberty, this may have applied then but not now since our understanding of human rights has progressed and needs democratic backing (indeed universal adult suffrage is one of those rights). Democracy means "rule of the people", not "choosing between a Coke candidate and a Pepsi candidate and giving him obscene power", and there is no way now to instantiate that principle, and what's worse, if we add the the numbers of the citizens who didn't vote to the votes for Gore, Nader etc. we must come to the conclusion that most of the people didn't want Bush in the first place (to say that an abstainer did not object to Bush by his abstention is a contradiction in terms), which is not enough a quantity of the people to be considered any kind of rule.
okay, that makes no sense. we dont have to come to any conlusion about abstentions to support your argumenent because an abstention is just that. An abstention doesnt imply a pre-disposition to either way, and your attempt to use language incorrectly is quite disturbing.

to review: the latin root of Abstain is to withold. and the modern definition is to refrain. The meaning hasn't changed much over time. you basically just said "we'll just add all the people who didn't vote in with those who voted with Gore, Nader because anstaining doesnt mean they wanted Bush."

and despite what other countries political discourse dispesners would have you believe, having a term limit on presidency is an appropriate thing reflecting the fact that Preisdency is not an empty figure-head position.

Democracy in its root word ingreek meant 'people'. Look up in any english, british dictionary and you're likely to find:
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives(american heritage)
Government by popular representation; a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, but is indirectly exercised through a system of representation and delegated authority periodically renewed; a constitutional representative government; a republic.(webster)
a political system governed by the people or their representatives (wordnet)
The legislative branch is of course, spineless, but that means they are useless in checking the executive, which appoints the judicial.
Not useless in checking the executive, but counter productive. have you seen who the democrats are Filibustering against appointment right now and why? and who they are in favour of?
So none of these trends are the product of the last three years, the problem has been here for years, and is only now coming to fruition. The US has a government that is in fatal contradiction to the interests of its citizens, and has now adopted a policy of staying on top by means of aggressive war., and is run by a ideological mediocrity. All of this is justified by an ideology which is accepted by most citizens.
this is another logic flaw breakdown. By this, you're stating that america as it is now is much like the confederacy which suceeded rather than had a revolution; that it is at some type of explosive critical mass. Thats ridiculous, chicken little. To even imply a magnitiude, state, or gravity is upon us now is not only a poorly thought out opinion, but a poorly researched one. The US is far from perfect but nowhere near as ready to explode as your statement seems to indicate it is.

and believe it or not, the ideology is NOT accepted my most citizens. Ask me or kthulu. I'm pretty much a devils advocate, but most of my views slant to a Conservative Libritarian. Kthulu is . .. not. Clearly we both see many things we think are wrong with America. But neither of us wants extremist from the left or right in office. We're sick of fake politicians and the results they produce, and so is a growing number of people in america. now more than ever people are actually so fed up they are learning about our government, the parties, the politicians and eveyrthing else just because of how much they dont' like things now. Dont think so? Look at the Fair Tax plan and its history.

The cancer is not a government but an entire ossified system, the whole country top to bottom, in institutions as well as in belief, and accepted by the people in general except for a few heretics. It cannot bend under pressure but can break, and the process has started.
ANother flaw. Our government recycles every few years. Its not new, its not old. the system is changing all the time. you just have to go back a long way to see it. Like tell me what the Republican party was founded for, if you can, and then look at what its tennants are now.
To not try for a different conception, a new institutions that will make democracy and freedom real under these circumstances is as romantic as a Roman to believe in the restoration of the pre-Augustan constitution, and only permits evasion of the basic issues regarding where the power really lies and what the public good consists of.
A full esoteric democracy will die. Nothing will ever get done. If legislation, judiciation and authority all had to be conducted through popular vote, the system would choke on itself. Representatives are elected to worry about that stuff in place of the people for a time.

Well, what is Iraq? "Temporarily occupied" doesn't cut it since Iraq has a certain natural resource, and there is no real difference to the Iraqis, as for most third worlders, in such distinctions. They know full well what the content of a "friendly" government, as Washington terms it, is, as sure as the Central Americans do. The entire modern definition owes its origin to a rationalization; since the US used to be subject to Britain, it knows firsthand that empires are wrong, so it avoids the form and preserves the content, and keeps the definition restricted to what other countries did/are doing/want to do. Just like the USSR never had any satellites, just "fraternal republics", and the Inquistion tortured anyone, they just "handed people over to the secular arm", and other such manifestations of Newspeak.[/i]
then explain puerto rico.

Besides, since the rest of the world that doesn't like america to begin with was already whining about the oil in Iraq from day one, what makes you think America is going to have an indefinet occupation for the sole purpose of controlling a natural resource? Do you realise how shortsighted a view that sounds? It would be next to impossible in just a few years to get anything done internationally. Not to mention the economic point made.
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