Are AMVs better than real music videos?

Leanan · Post by **Leanan** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:26 am

Beowulf wrote:
Leanan wrote:That's the one where that one actor guy dances around.
That one actor guy?

Christopher Walken

My head was fuzzy last night. I couldn't think.

Nightowl · Post by **Nightowl** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:23 pm

Otohiko - I am not a techie. Far from it. What I am saying is that the reason no one here could make a music video - a real music video - is that 99% of the people here don't even know how to use a camera. And you kinda need a camera in order to make a music video... it isn't a matter of being technical or artistic, it's simply a fact. Knowing how to use a camera is simply knowing f-stops or film threading. That's for the DP (who must be, in and of him/herself, both an artist and technically proficient).

You honestly have no idea what I'm talking about. If you really think you can say to yourself, "I'm an artist," and go out and create film, you are so wrong. Film - of which music video production is a part - has a completely different set of rules. You have to play all sides of artist, business person, and techie if you want to get your shit out there. If you want your family to see the dog taking a crap, pick up mom's video camera. Be realistic.

Zalas - most people here couldn't make an artistic real world music video, no. Not if they wanted to do it right. First, they would have to learn how to edit on a true NLE so they could cut film. Unless they shot on video, but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm saying that put most people on the a-m-v.org forum into a professional film environment (which includes artistic) and they'll look as stupid as the bastards on Project Greenlight. You can't simply have good intention or an idea. There is a lot more to film as an art than simply creativity.

Oh, and the only example of what I'm talking (in regards to truly original music video) about would be Daicon - and they didn't even obtain the rights from ELO.

Real world music videos these days, for the most part, do suck. But none of you could make em based on AMVs, artistic or otherwise. You (being a general you) would need a hell of a lot more training and experience in different types of media, not to mention editing.

-N

zalas · Post by **zalas** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:41 pm

Nightowl wrote:Otohiko - I am not a techie. Far from it. What I am saying is that the reason no one here could make a music video - a real music video - is that 99% of the people here don't even know how to use a camera. And you kinda need a camera in order to make a music video... it isn't a matter of being technical or artistic, it's simply a fact. Knowing how to use a camera is simply knowing f-stops or film threading. That's for the DP (who must be, in and of him/herself, both an artist and technically proficient).

Using a camera based on film is only needed nowadays to capture real life things. More animation production is being done on the computer nowadays. With the advent of digital video, more films are getting shot with digital cameras.
(And yeah, I do know how f-stops work, haven't done film reel related things because I haven't had a need to.)

You honestly have no idea what I'm talking about. If you really think you can say to yourself, "I'm an artist," and go out and create film, you are so wrong. Film - of which music video production is a part - has a completely different set of rules. You have to play all sides of artist, business person, and techie if you want to get your shit out there. If you want your family to see the dog taking a crap, pick up mom's video camera. Be realistic.

Granted that artistry, business, and technology all play a part in film making, I think the artistic portion should come first, followed by technology and then business. Bad business will hinder your film's publicity, but the best business in the world can never make a film 'good' imo (I don't count people blindly listening to advertisements). IMO, what makes a film 'good' is a good artistic basis followed by proper use of technology. Take for instance Shinkai Makoto's Hoshi no Koe. That film is more artistic than most films/anime I've seen. I've seen a lot of production houses produce mediocre anime, even if the technology employed was great, and I *know* GONZO et. al have better business resources. Besides, the artist can always come up with an idea, and the artist can then work with someone technically proficient to put the idea into fruition. Finally, they can contact someone for the business side. An independent artist does not have actually do all three parts.

Zalas - most people here couldn't make an artistic real world music video, no. Not if they wanted to do it right. First, they would have to learn how to edit on a true NLE so they could cut film. Unless they shot on video, but that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm saying that put most people on the the Org forum into a professional film environment (which includes artistic) and they'll look as stupid as the bastards on Project Greenlight. You can't simply have good intention or an idea. There is a lot more to film as an art than simply creativity.

I was actually irked by your previous statement of "no one can." With this statement, however, I can agree with you. It is true that many of the people on here wouldn't know how to cut film, etc. However, that doesn't mean that no one could

However, even though I agree with your observation here, I still believe that the _idea_ is the most important part of any production. No matter how much technical expertise you throw at a project, if your _idea_ is flawed from the beginning, it can never in my eyes be as good as something with a much better central idea. For example, there are some nicely designed amvs out there which don't have much technical fluency attached to it, and then there are a lot of amvs which are technically superior, but don't really have any substance. I'm not arguing that industry people are deficient at being able to _produce_ a music video. I'm arguing that the guys higher up who are in charge of idea creation need to be a bit better.

Real world music videos these days, for the most part, do suck. But none of you could make em based on AMVs, artistic or otherwise. You (being a general you) would need a hell of a lot more training and experience in different types of media, not to mention editing.

I'm assuming you meant "based on Animes." Well, the basic amount of knowledge I think someone would need to have would be the ability to use a digital camcorder, know how to use NLE software such as Final Cut Pro, know how to capture from other media, such as animating scanned images, know how to adjust video so that they are correct in hues, saturation, etc and knowing how to use these things in an artistic sort of way. Is there something I didn't put up or am I just not getting you?

Kai Stromler · Post by **Kai Stromler** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:02 pm

zalas wrote:
Real world music videos these days, for the most part, do suck. But none of you could make em based on AMVs, artistic or otherwise.
I'm assuming you meant "based on Animes."

He probably meant 'based on the self-training and learning you've acquired through AMV work'.

Nate works with film/video for a living and gets touchy when people go into Icarus-mode and think that knowing Premiere makes them also professionals. Some of it is personal defensiveness of the time and effort he has spent learning his craft, and some of it is a much, much needed dose of reality so some eighteen-year-old kid doesn't win a couple awards and try to apply for a job at some production house, only to be laughed out of the building because he doesn't possess the right skillset. I find it bracing and necessary, but then again I don't get into arguments with him.

--K

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:10 pm

I hadn't said I don't appreciate or sympathise with what filmmakers have to go through to make their videos, particularly when they're trying to balance art with personal career success.

My preference for AMV's is based strictly on a) their more accessible nature that allows virtually anyone to express themselves in an audio-visual medium b) personal preference.

There's nothing else to it. No evil prejudice, no misinformation, no attempt to discredit good, professional artists.

As for art - that's a whole different discussion. Needless to say, one can't just go and proclaim "I am artist!" and begin to create whatever.

No, there is a commitment to be made, there is intention to be invested, and yes - there are technical requirements and limits one would have to meet on the way to the artistic goal, there is hard work to be done. Art is not about the scale or technical merits of the result. Its' about representing an original idea in a sufficiently accurate fashion, and about committing oneself to the creative process.

Obviously, a real artistic MV requires a massive commitment. However, what I'm doubting is the presence of artistic intentions in many commercial MV's.

So, a real artistic MV gets all the credit it deserves from me. Just that, mind you - in commercial video production, there are concessions to be made for the sake of profit. In AMV, there are usually none.

However, as I said, if you manage this balancing act, I will be most impressed with a commercial video that manages to be highly artistic. As I'm sure will be most other people...

So, again, don't worry, I/we are not discrediting you. Just looking at it from the super-liberal anti-commercial artist-hippie perspective. I can't all of a sudden start lying about my artistic passions, can I?

Bloodyfäng · Post by **Bloodyfäng** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:19 pm

Leanan wrote:
Beowulf wrote:
Leanan wrote:That's the one where that one actor guy dances around.
That one actor guy?

Christopher Walken
My head was fuzzy last night. I couldn't think.

Just what were you on last night, and where can I get some?

Oh yea, That music video pwns me

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:30 pm

Kai Stromler wrote: Nate works with film/video for a living and gets touchy when people go into Icarus-mode and think that knowing Premiere makes them also professionals. Some of it is personal defensiveness of the time and effort he has spent learning his craft, and some of it is a much, much needed dose of reality so some eighteen-year-old kid doesn't win a couple awards and try to apply for a job at some production house, only to be laughed out of the building because he doesn't possess the right skillset. I find it bracing and necessary, but then again I don't get into arguments with him.
--K

Thanks for that interpretation Kai

To that, two points:

I - Don't you worry about me trying to get in the biz. Same, I'm sure, holds true regarding other many others here. Hell, I'm a self-proclaimed AMV amateur and I'll never claim any professional titles. On the other hand, this allows me to enjoy a degree of freedom and command a lack of expectations on behalf of the audience should I release an AMV. (which is a good thing)

II - In general, I'd compare an AMVer boasting supremacy over real MV's to a heavy-metal guitar shredder trying to get into a classical ensemble. They're just incomparable and incompatible. A heavy-metal shredder might know how to play guitar, but it's very unlikely that this knowledge is anywhere near the level required for an eloquent, technically superb classical ensemble. So, there's no hope for him in there.

Yet, I think I'd rather listen to a heavy-metal shredder play his heart out than a classical ensemble perform a who-knows-which rendition of a 200-year-old piece of music. Because that would be more personal and intentional.

So, look at it the way you want. That's how I see this.

gambitt · Post by **gambitt** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:46 pm

[quote="Otohiko"]II - In general, I'd compare an AMVer boasting supremacy over real MV's to a heavy-metal guitar shredder trying to get into a classical ensemble. They're just incomparable and incompatible. A heavy-metal shredder might know how to play guitar, but it's very unlikely that this knowledge is anywhere near the level required for an eloquent, technically superb classical ensemble. So, there's no hope for him in there.
[quote]

If it's so incomparable then why are we having this stupid debate over whether AMVs are better than MVs? Yes, it's incomparable. Though, granted, it's been fun watching the bitchstorm, and I'm not saying that because I work with the incomparable "-N".

And then again, I haven't been reading most of what's posted here. Just the good parts.

ithaqua · Post by **ithaqua** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:36 pm

Arctyc wrote:
ithaqua wrote:...

Electric Six - Danger! High Voltage!
Catchy song, great video.

...
Part of me wants to bust out laughing and agree, while another part of me wants to strangle you for that.

Tell me do you....

Do you have any money?

I want to spend all your money!

at the Gay Bar, Gay Bar Wooowwwwww!!

See, it could be much worse.

Leanan · Post by **Leanan** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:21 pm

Bloodyfäng wrote:
Leanan wrote:
Beowulf wrote:
Leanan wrote:That's the one where that one actor guy dances around.
That one actor guy?

Christopher Walken
My head was fuzzy last night. I couldn't think.
Just what were you on last night, and where can I get some?

Oh yea, That music video pwns me

I ate too much sugar. Way too hyper.