OMG the Esca dub = tEh ubar!

AtomicWeezleman · Post by **AtomicWeezleman** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 5:41 pm

So it begins............. palce your bets......

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:02 pm

SSJVegita0609 wrote:AH-HA! Time for my revenge! (I too will try to stray from starting the sub/dub wars though)

You are incorrect sir, because we're speaking of different definitions of better you see. Your definition captures its technical aspects whereas my definition is opinionated. Just because it's not THE ORIGINAL doesn't mean that someone can't LIKE it better and thus THINK it is better.

Well y'see in using the word "better" it's very easy to extrapolate that to "better than the original" yes? I of course concede personal opinions and preference. That is in our very nature and I in no way am saying it is wrong to hold such an opinion. I was only angry at the "better" word, which you have clearly explained

SSJVegita0609 wrote:Are you saying that the creator of Escaflowne (The writer of the manga) single handedly hand picked all of the Voice actors for the roles and personally made sure that each one was the best possible fit for the part IN THE WORLD? I'm afraid that's not how it works. Chances are the company who animated the show completely bought out the rights and thusly, were the ones who picked everything. Sure, they may have gained the approval of the creator, but I doubt he/she really had a say in many of the matters.

I'm pretty sure this will take care of most of your reply, but actually Escaflowne is one of the animes that came out first and then the manga (another example is Evangelion). In fact, there were two mangas printed. A "Shonen" version and Shoujo version. They obviously appealed to their target audiences with the changes made.

The show was conceptualized by Shoji Kawamori (about 5 years before it's creation...couldn't get a company to sign on to the idea.) and he recruited Akana Kazuki to direct it. They were both *very* involved. They both wrote the story, the dialogue, etc. together. Kawamori even designed Escaflowne..I THINK (hell he made the original Veritech from Macross and some of the original Gundams...a God among men

) and yes...they *did* cast the voice actors themselves. I have seen intereviews on the Japanese discs that confirm this. I have also seen video of them in the recording studios listening and so on. One could extrapolate that this means they had quite a bit of say on if something sounded "right" or not.

So in a nutshell, yes the creator DID pick the voice actors and so on. In fact, as you said, almost every show has to have the approval of the director/creator to do so and I think it's fairly customary for the creator to sit-in during casting-calls and voice tests...maybe even episodes. In fact, I'm sure that some of the manga creators do the same thing when they really care about their show. Regardless...with this example you are wrong on the manga -> anime point and I hope I have made it clear in my retort.

SSJVegita0609 wrote:No offense taken good sir, don't worry. Anyways, I am just a fan, this is true. However, at the same time being a fan I'm rather observant and extremely alert to anything that doesn't make sense or seems unrealistic, thus I'm entitled to voice my opinion on the matter. Sure I can't change anything within the show, but if I like something better than something else, then who are you to tell me that liking that thing is wrong? (please don't take offense to that)

Point conceded. You are a fan and have every right to say what you think is good to you and so on. I just hate hearing the word "better" and so on.

SSJVegita0609 wrote:According to your logic, everyone must think the manga is better than the anime because, naturally, the manga came first and was the ORIGINAL story. Now, this is not the case, and thus people can like a different version of the same story better than the original.

Well hopefully I have made it clear that it's not only the manga creators...just simply the creators. Many animes start out as TV shows and then they create manga to milk the horse some more. Evangelion, Escaflowne and Cowboy Bebop are all examples of this.

Any when you say better....better to you. To me, a purist, there is no such thing as better than the original.

SSJVegita0609 wrote:
dwchang wrote: The creator chose Allen's voice to be gentle to illustrate his more gentle traits...the things that Hitomi as well as all the other females admire.
Don't wanna sound mean, but do you know the creator? Are you sure about this? Plus like I've said before, the creator probably was not the one responsible for choosing Allen's Japanese VA.

Yes, I'm sure. It's in the interviews and junk. Also in artbooks and profiles of Allen. Not to be mean to the US VA, but it's obvious he didn't (as well as the voice director) do any research.

SSJVegita0609 wrote:I too am not trying to bash anyone for watching something the way they like it. I generally perfer subs to dubs myself, I just happen to think dubbing companies get bashed too often. Anyways, I hope I'm not launching the whole war thing again, I'm simply defending my statement that the English VAs weren't all THAT bad.

Nah, it's fine. I think Atomic is the one who thinks this is going to explode when in fact both of us are carrying on a logical and calm discussion (which I like doing).

I do agree that dubbing companies get a lot of bashing, but at the same time, I am only making my points and suggestions because I *want* things to get better. For things to be more accurate and pure. I will be the first to admit that dubbing IS getting better. Look at Bebop, Mononoke Hime and Spirited Away.

At the same time, there is still room for improvement since the vast majority don't seem to care that much (the VAs) and don't seem to really research the roles or carry the wishes of the creators. Again, there are times when they do a good job (as mentioned). Hopefully it will continue to occur and this won't be the exception (being good that is).

Propyro · Post by **Propyro** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:04 pm

jesus fucking christ that was fast dwchang ... man ... i guess i should have kept this going in the PM's eh? oh well ... this is what ... the 4th or 5th Dub vs Sub war i've conjured up since i joined?

AtomicWeezleman · Post by **AtomicWeezleman** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:06 pm

Propyro wrote:jesus fucking christ that was fast dwchang ... man ... i guess i should have kept this going in the PM's eh? oh well ... this is what ... the 4th or 5th Dub vs Sub war i've conjured up since i joined?

You fiend you, your hands are stained with the blood off many a war, thou must die!!!!!!!!!

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:07 pm

Propyro wrote:jesus fucking christ that was fast dwchang ... man ... i guess i should have kept this going in the PM's eh? oh well ... this is what ... the 4th or 5th Dub vs Sub war i've conjured up since i joined?

I don't see it as a dub/sub war just yet. He and I haven't gone that into the dub/sub disadvantages/advantages thing that much anyway. He himself says he watches subs. We are discussing the merits of the Escaflowne dub and he made a false statement about the creators (manga and stuff) and thus I replied. It's nothing like the ones you're talking about and I am pretty sure it should cool off fairly soon. Also, doesn't look like a "war" to me yet.

And yeah, I do blame you since you started this thread.

SSJVegita0609 · Post by **SSJVegita0609** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:14 pm

dwchang wrote:
Propyro wrote:jesus fucking christ that was fast dwchang ... man ... i guess i should have kept this going in the PM's eh? oh well ... this is what ... the 4th or 5th Dub vs Sub war i've conjured up since i joined?
I don't see it as a dub/sub war just yet. He and I haven't gone that into the dub/sub disadvantages/advantages thing that much anyway. He himself says he watches subs. We are discussing the merits of the Escaflowne dub and he made a false statement about the creators (manga and stuff) and thus I replied. It's nothing like the ones you're talking about and I am pretty sure it should cool off fairly soon. Also, doesn't look like a "war" to me yet.

And yeah, I do blame you since you started this thread.

Agreed, I wasn't trying to start any dub/sub war, and we really were carrying on a calm conversation using logical points without attacking the personal views of each other.

I see I was wrong with my 85% sure. Alas, that 15% decided to run up and stab my arguement in the back. Oh well.

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:49 pm

SSJVegita0609 wrote:Agreed, I wasn't trying to start any dub/sub war, and we really were carrying on a calm conversation using logical points without attacking the personal views of each other.

I think we should flame him for even thinking such a thing

I'll go get the gasoline

SSJVegita0609 wrote:I see I was wrong with my 85% sure. Alas, that 15% decided to run up and stab my arguement in the back. Oh well.

It's always that 15% (for me it's more like 23% or 17%) that gets ya. Hopefully you see my points as I see yours with personal preference. I was reading over my reply and realized (not for the first time), I know too much about Escaflowne (and Kenshin and Evangelion)

. Oh well, it comes in handy for questions like this...too bad I haven't seen much recently and can't comment on them and only these "ancient" shows

.

Propyro · Post by **Propyro** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:13 pm

dwchang wrote: I was reading over my reply and realized (not for the first time), I know too much about Escaflowne (and Kenshin and Evangelion)

you can never know too much ... the more "useless" tidbits you can toss out there the better.

AtomicWeezleman wrote:You fiend you, your hands are stained with the blood of many a war, thou must die!!!!!!!!!

All in good time.

the Black Monarch · Post by **the Black Monarch** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:25 pm

Today I heard the original Japanese version and the English dub of Escaflowne. And this is what I have to say:

It's a damn good dub. All of the major characters had very realistic and natural voices that were either very close to the original voices or otherwise well-suited to the character. The acting was believable enough, too. Perhaps my perceptions are slightly distorted by the fact that Eva and CBB are the only other shows that I've seen in both subbed and dubbed, and the Eva dub sucked huge donkey dick. But the important thing is that there are no major flaws like bad acting, big differences between English and Japanese VAs, or voices that no human would actually posess.

dwchang wrote: Don't even get me started on Dilandau sounding like a 5 year old boy. I might also add that Dilandau's voice on the Japanese track was done marvelously

Dude... he sounds the same in both versions: like a girl. Really. When I heard the English version, I was shocked by how closely the English voice matched the Japanese one. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that a bilingual voice actress did both the Japanese and English versions.

dwchang wrote: To me, a purist, there is no such thing as better than the original.

So Windows 95 is superior to Windows 2000? Rough drafts are always superior to finished scripts? Toy Story 1 was better than Toy Story 2? Premiere is better than Premiere Pro? Pentiums were better before the long division bug was fixed and MMX was added?

Maybe the version that I heard was a really good fandub or something.

Propyro · Post by **Propyro** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:31 pm

the Black Monarch wrote:
So Windows 95 is superior to Windows 2000? Rough drafts are always superior to finished scripts? Toy Story 1 was better than Toy Story 2? Premiere is better than Premiere Pro? Pentiums were better before the long division bug was fixed and MMX was added?

no ... 98 was better then win 2k ... or at elast win 2k pro ... toy story sucked ... theres a toy story 2? wtf? By the way thats a bit out of context but i see your point ... (but it's still out of context)

/fin