Master Archive Fundraising

Dannywilson · Post by **Dannywilson** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:28 pm

VicBond007 wrote:And while you're all in the giving mood, I need money for a better CPU and a new SVHS-deck. Trust me, it's for the good of everyone.

Its not like he's selling his AMV DVD's or anything. He's not editing on the computer, he doesn't need the cash for the wear and tear on a new DVD burner. He's preserving the art, especially the older vids from creators that are no longer around to upload to the Carrot/Donut. There is a difference between you and him Vic. Remember that before you post snide comments.

flammie · Post by **flammie** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:23 pm

Why not do tape backup? After the initial cost, it would seem to be a better long term solution than buying a new machine.

Org Profile · Post by **Vlad G Pohnert** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:36 pm

flammie wrote:Why not do tape backup? After the initial cost, it would seem to be a better long term solution than buying a new machine.

Tape backup is go for exaclty what it implies BACKUP. personally I found in the end the most economical way of holding data you constantly need is via a Hard Drive... Magnetic tapes and DVDs are perfect for Backing up the data of a server, but for many reasons (some already mentioned), it's not procatical in this situation....

Actually, if you really think about it, once the money has been invested, a drive array with over 1 Terrabye+ would be good for the next 3 years or so... Hence it's not really that HUGE of money drainer...

Vlad

SeeDTien · Post by **SeeDTien** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:54 pm

is there someway that after each con, you can ask the con distributers for a donation or a cut of the profit because of your work the anime convention makes a profit so in return you need better equipment so you can continue the job..

TaranT · Post by **TaranT** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 3:28 am

Not to keep bringing this up, but would a limited set of DVD burning solve the short term problem; i.e. disk space through the end of this year ? Seems like AWA is very close with not much time to build and debug a new system like this one.

******************
Anyway, here's another fund-raising idea that I'll toss in the ring.

In short, this would be an OtakuVideo-sponsored online contest that charged a fee to participate. For example...

1. Creators upload small MPEG1/DivX files to the FTP site.
2. Pre-screening eliminates all but 10 finalists - plus some alternates.
3. The finalists are contacted and asked to send a high-res copy of their video plus a check for $50, or maybe a pledge to do so later. Alternates fill in for finalists who decline to continue.
4. A dvd is cut and copies are sent to the judges. These people would ideally be AMV creators who are well-known and respected, and who are willing to volunteer a few hours of their time.
5. With the scores, judges would also be asked to return written commentary that would be returned (anonymously?) to the finalists.
6. In addition to the comments, finalists would receive a copy of the contest DVD. The winner gets a certificate (or something inexpensive).
7. All net proceeds go towards upgrading OtakuVideo contest equipment, T1 fees, etc.

The type of videos could be restricted to make things more interesting for the judges:
a. Only Masters-grade videos.
b. Only xxx style of music.
c. Editing challenge; e.g. each entry 90 seconds or less.
d. more???

****************
Other comments:
* All numbers & dollar amounts are only suggestions.
* This probably could not be done by AWA 2003.
* Given Quu's workload, several volunteers would be advisable.
* The trick is to structure this so the entrants get something in return for the fee, something that's intangible, inexpensive, but still valuable (like the opinions of experienced AMV makers).
* At the same time, the judges should at least be entertained (?).

****************

Dannywilson · Post by **Dannywilson** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 3:34 am

Good Idea. I for one like it.

outlawed · Post by **outlawed** » Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:18 pm

Quu wrote:I am considering backing up the master archive to optical media... but there is several issues
<SNIP>
DVD-R are easily damanged when handled alot.l.. succh as traveling to a convnetion. I would consider optical media for backup purposes only... <SNIP>
1120 gigs is about 266 discs (rounding down to compensate for mis sized files not maximizing the disc potential)... 266 discs is about $400 and 200 hours or 40 days worth of burning

This isn't going to help you with fundraising. But as one of the few people who is managing files on a level that you are talking about I'm going to make a few comments:

As Quu has stated DVD-R are only good for backup. Not efficient access of files. Even if you make a directory list and pipe it into a text file so you can search back later you still have the issues of cost, burn time, and storage.

1) Cost
I have burned over 200 DVD-R. I have been using the cheapest decent media I could find. Namely 1x Princo. I have had no degradation of discs in the last year. This indicates to me that the discs should hold up long enough until it is necessary to re-burn to another optical format such as blue-ray or what-not. So for those who think I'm crazy for using Princo instead of expensive DVD-R that is my logic. Currently princo can be bough in bulk 100 packs for $76. Per MB this works out VERY nice and you aren't going to find a cheaper backup path.

2)Burn Time
This is a major issue, especially for those with full-time jobs. It's also and even bigger issue for those with full-time jobs and lives ^_^. However it is FAR more manageable than CD-R backup. Since you are burning over 4gig a shot you can affor do queue a burn and leave for awhile. As long as you don't mind leaving the computer on 24/7 you will be surprised how many you can do a day just by intermittently stopping by. If cost is not an issue and speed is everything to you then the 8X (that's about 10MB/sec) DVD burners coming out (Plextor just announced one) is for you. For me cost is more important so I prefer to afford to wait over an hour for a burn and verify.

3) Storage
Eventually you will find you have too many discs. After burning thousands of CD-R and having to span discs with rar files to backup 30GB files I determined that I had better eat the bullet and move to DVD-R. Management wise the number of discs is much easier to store. It is important to factor in the binder cost associated with the number of discs being burned. At some point you will find you have burned too many DVD-R and need to search for a more efficient solution that has scaled up to your new data needs.

And now we come down to the conclusion. This is all about scalability. While hard drives are increasing 100% in size each year our backup options are NOT. At some point it will not be efficient to offline files anymore to DVD-R past a certain point. Luckily with Quu's case he can rest assured that MPEG-2 file sizes aren't going to change on him. Now if we start submitting in MPEG-2 at 25Mb/s-50Mb/s for HDTV source in the future...lol.

My advice is to backup to DVD-R. Force yourself to cut out some stuff that you think you won't use as often and offline those to optical only. Yes this means it is not conveniently available and yes it means you run the danger of the disc itself being damaged. However since you are running RAID IDE even if you max out the RAID IDE setup it probably only goes up to at most 2-3 TB. So you will still run out of space sooner or later. If you think that will last a long time then I say it is better to not get the new system but instead change the card in the current system and max it out. Basically spend all the money on IDE drives for the RAID and external drives.

So far the only given we have is that there is no cheaper way to backup than DVD-R at this time. Hard drives continue to drop in price. If you are willing to risk data loss then perhaps a new 250-300GB drive will be worth it to store data that is being uploaded. Or perhaps a better combo would be to use 250GB firewire drives to hold the videos that have already been burned off to DVD-R. Although having no parity for the drive you would have the advantage of using 100% of the drive and you could rely on the DVD-R in the case of emergency failure. Obviously this could fail too but there is no way for 100% data reliability with the level of funds available. You and I both wish we could do enterprise level storage at home ^_^

I have posted this here because some of this may be applicable for those thinking about this issue. I'm sure Quu knows most of this and has considered it. There are a lot of reasons for a complete repackaging of equipment instead of just drives. So please don't assume that because I have mapped out the above examples that they are 100% applicable to Quu's situation.

Quu · Post by **Quu** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:33 pm

OK… I am back.

I am going to go ahead with this server one way or the other. If you think it’s a bad idea, nobody is forcing you to take part of the fundraiser. Hell, I was not even planning on asking for donations, it was only after a couple people asked that I even made the donation page. This topic was more for what could I do to raise the funds, not an asking for the funds, though that was appreciated.

Burning to DVD-R is not a realistic option right now. My biggest problem is limited time. The DVD burning would keep me from doing Otakon’s contest, AWA’s contest, and others. I was not looking for alternatives to the master file server, as I have already researched the alternatives. It will take 40 days of burning to backup the archive. I have a fulltime job and have contests to manage. Also the current archive will be over filled within 40 days. If you feel that the master server is not a good idea, nobody is forcing you to take part of the fund raiser.

The server may appear to be for personal use, but it is not, nothing except music videos and music video related data go on it. I use the server to organize people’s videos, keep them synchronized with remote archives. It allows me to build play lists for custom showings, for instance the Gainax DVD I am working on. The server acts as a central organization point for the contest administrators and me, keeping things easy to use and understand.

Currently I have had three realistic options for fund raising. The first is the simple donation that I have already setup. The second was the idea of the charity contest. A contest that costs money to enter, and would have a kick ass prize for the winner. The third is a charity style auction. Each of these has their advantages and disadvantages.

Donations are the simplest to setup, as I have already done, and have the least amount of administrative time needed. The disadvantage is that I can’t don’t have anything to offer as incentive, as giving out music videos for money is a strict no, and anything unique would be hard to get in quantity. Hardware donations also require shipping which is an extra overhead, but nice and clean from the idealistic standpoint. Donations of money and hardware look to be the staple, and can run concurrently with other attempts. I might be also able to setup “tip jar” style box at conventions? What is a good inventive to donate that I would be allowed to do?

A pay to enter contest seams to the most intriguing to me. I honestly had not thought of it before someone suggested it, and it could be the most fun. I have enough contacts in the industry and other places that unique prizes are easily obtainable. The biggest limitation is the administration time, and a showcase time slot. This has a lot of potential…. But like the DVD-R problem, is time I don’t have to manage.

Charity auction style events probably have the greatest possibility in working out. The same contacts I could use to get unique prizes for the contest I could use to get stuff to auction. The problem with this is two fold, advertising and auction location. I would have to hold and auction in a public forum, mainly conventions, and would have to advertise in advance so people would know about it. Conventions tend to have a problem with that type of thing going on outside of select areas (dealer’s room, artists alley) due to conflict of interests, though it is doable. The biggest problem is the lead time. Charity style auctions do not work well with out significant preparation time.

Now to comment on previous posts…

Archive the “bad” videos or videos nobody watches.
Who makes the choice on if a video is good or bad. Who decides if the video is “worthy” of remaining on the file server? One thing I have worked really hard to maintain is that all videos receive equal treatment. I will treat a Linkon Park video set to Dragon Ball Z with the same care that I would treat Jeff Taterek’s video collection. All videos to me are precious, and saying that one is better than the other is not something I want to do

Selling stuff as in retail
Setting my self up as a retail salesman would be much more trouble than it would be worth. I would have to deal with a license, taxes, and all sorts of stuff that would remove all time for me to run the contest techs

Archive to CD/DVD
This is not a static archive. It is an evolving adaptive record. I have music videos more than 20 years old, dating back to 1982. That is a powerful amount of data to have at my fingertips, and allows for the most incredible programming tracks and events at conventions. Statically storing it on optical media would remove the flexibility

It’s a hobby
Iserlohn… yes this is a hobby… I am not forcing anybody to donate or help out. In fact if nobody does, I will still figure out a way to do this my self. I am not saying to give me money or I will go away, I will figure something out, I am just asking in help to relieve some of the pressure I am under. I am helping out for the community, and would like to think I do more than the average bear, so to speak. Back during the internet bubble I could easily afford to drop a couple grand a month on equipment, but not any more. I have spent over $40k on AMV contests so far, not counting the amount of money for my own editing computers and source footage. I bought an $8k VCR just so that people who still edit with analog equipment could stand side by side with the digital videos for quality. This is a hobby, and I take it seriously. This is also a community, so I figured that I could ask for some help back. If you feel that I should pay for all of this my self, and that you should not have to pay, then don’t. Nobody will force you to, but please don’t tell other people what to do. Also, your insinuation about my impartiality is quite insulting.

Before AWA
Yes… I need the computer before AWA actually. Will AWA stop if I don’t have it by then…? Nope… AWA will keep going. I have stop gap measures that will allow me to adapt. Will it be the safest method, no, but it will work, I think.

Asking conventions for a cut of the profit
This is a definite sticky subject. I would basically be charging the conventions for AMV related stuff. Even if I did not charge for the AMVs… but instead for the equipment, its still a sticky subject. Besides, most conventions don’t have a budget for it. Trust me on that. Cons are notoriously tight fisted, and for good reason. You may think that conventions make out like bandits, but trust me from the inside… they have tight margins. If conventions could afford, and justify, to pay for the equipment I have, do you think they would still have me handle things?

Org Profile · Post by **VicBond007** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:52 pm

First off, I just want you all to know that I wholeheartedly enjoy it whenever anyone picks apart anything I've said and tears me to shreds. you criticize me for being opinionated, and then sneak in your own delightfully negative comments about me both as a person and as a creator, whenever and wherever possible. After 8 hours at work with idiots calling me an idiot, it's nice to know I can come home, logon to the .org, and get the same treatment as I do during normal buisness hours. I was making a suggestion based on my understanding of the subject and how I feel, and I tend to express myself very bluntly. My apologies for not being always giddy, bubbly, and supportive of my fellow AMV creators and other such hobbyists associated with the craft.

There, now that I've said that, I can now finish my post knowing that anything I say below this point won't matter because the upper portion of this message offers considerably more substantial material for individuals to criticize my person.

From what I can tell, burning some videos off to DVDR temporarily would probably the most time/cost effective solution. Pat, I'm sure you know from running quite a few contests this year, that digital submissions are multiplying like bunnies in the spring. Even if you double the server space, you'll run out of space in an exponentially more amount of time due to the massive scale of which AMVs are released today. Temporary burning clears you up for AWA and buys you more time to get some more money. I'm kinda feeling the "pay to enter" contest idea but you're right. to do it right would require time, and with the above method, you can at least stall

Eventually you'll get enough money to get a disgustingly huge server that will last quite a while longer and this way you won't have to delete videos, because I agree, the greatest insult of all is saying that a video is unworthy of archiving. We can all agrue over good and bad videos, and we may all worship the good ones and poke our eyes out at the bad ones, but somebody still took the time to make that video and whether is 1 hour or 400 hours, that video deserves to be preserved forever. Besides, who knows? Maybe my future mini-VicBond's will have an affinity for LinkinBallZ videos, and SOMEBODY has to keep them!

Cybermat · Post by **Cybermat** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:15 pm

SeeDTien wrote:after each con, you can ask the con distributers for a donation or a cut of the profit

Profits? From an anime con? Bwahahahaha!

Most anime conventions operate on the principle that "not losing too much money" is a good year. Nearly every anime con in existence is about one bad year away from bankrupting the organiziers and not existing any more.

Anime is a hobby. This means it's a drain on finances, not a source of them. It's up to the people who love AMVs (probably you, if you're reading this) to help each other out so that AMVs thrive and survive.

Just to put my two cents in, I think helping create the world's best archive of Anime Music Videos would be a damn cool thing to be part of.