AMV Contests - This whole trolling issue

[dwchang]

Just out of curiosity, what's with all of this local amv creator stuff? Why do we need to cater to them? Just because they happen to live close to a particular con to compete in doesn't mean that we should stop other people elsewhere from competing against them.

Well you're right about there not being a 'tier system.' What I was getting at is that it would suck to actually go to the con, pay money and then not be shown. I thought i said that

As for quality, as I stated in the thread, I do agree that smaller cons that need entries shouldn't limit this, but at the same time I think a certain degree of courtesy needs to be displayed by each creator when they think about where to submit and whatnot.

Then again, as far as I can tell, I think some of the people who are crying foul are the ones who are lesser known amv creators who are dissatisified with their lack of popularity, and instead of working on making newer and hopefully better amvs, they've turned to beating down other amv creators who they feel might be on the track to becoming popular.

I do hope you do not mean me. I am only saying my views on the entire issue since it is something that I feel fairly disgusted with lately (ask Vlad, he and I talked about it last night instead of letting me edit ). I also think my views haven't been about a particular video or even any of mine. Then again, perhaps I am wrong and I am.

Wow, it's like the video didn't suck! But these awards don't mean anything to anyone, because there were no other good videos competing. That's why the big name cons have a high status. Out of so many excellent entries, there's one video that wins, and that's an achievement to be proud of. Personally it's an honor for me to even be considered on the same slate as all sorts of other excellent vids, because that implies to me that my entries are at the same level.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree. I'd rather have a good contest and lose than one with no competition and own. It feels quite a bit more rewarding when up against so many good videos. I mean hell, if I even made the cut for Otakon, I'm told that in itself is an honor and judging by the fact there are ~200 entries and only about 7 per category...I'm sure they're correct.

So yeah, don't get me wrong, I love good healthy competition and wouldn't dream of making contest any less in quality or entertainment. I am mainly referring to well...other things (as I'm HOPING you realize).

[hackerzc]

Ok, I don’t want to take a thread into the wrong direction so I’ve started a new one in what I feel is the appropriate group since this topic of trolling at conventions needs to be discussed and is very relative to the state of where contests and us creators are going…. I’ve also noticed so many different opinions and some upset people over this as well.

I thing the term trolling holds too many meaning to everyone here as well as how contests define it. From some of the definitions I heard, I guess I an considered to be a troll for some of my videos as well but at no time do I think I’ve considered myself a troll by my definitions that is (You’ll see what I mean)… So, here goes my view on the whole thing regardless If I get flamed for it or not….

Before I discuss things further, I might as well define what I in my opinion (Pease keep in mind the is MY OPINION ONLY) consider not to be Trolling:

NOT Trolling:
- If you enter into a multiple contests with overlapping deadline to a reasonable limit (for me it’s 2 - 4 max (depending on the contest), but this can be different for others – what exactly is reasonable???)
- If the contest does not have a problem with tolling as mentioned in the rules and does not mind your submission (No one is forced to enter into a contest that they do not agree with the rules).
- If you win in a contest, but it’s the only contest you’ve entered and you enter one additional contest after you know of your win (North America is a HUGE continent, it’s a BIG audience out there).
- You win, say 2 awards, after the submission deadline of a third con that you have submitted to (I personally think to withdraw after the deadline when the judging process is already happening can hurt or complicate the contest – Think about, say 5 contestants doing that after all the work go into making and sending judging tapes out!)
- I don’t consider winning online only contests the same thing as winning at a convention, there is no “Public” audience involved and can be way to diverse to consider it IMO (A group of friends could make up a contest and have winners from themselves so how valid is that?) I’m not stating an opinion about if an online contest of better or worse, just consider them not comparable or same thing as a Convention contest.

I’m sure this is not the same opinion everyone else has out there, and I’m sure some will agree and consider something I’ve said as trolling. I do want to point out that that has been videos over the years that have fallen into one or more of the above point I’ve made and never has anyone mentioned that they were tolling… Just an observation rather than an opinion.

Now, I do agree that it’s important for us to voice our opinion and concerns about trolling, or when we may consider a video to be trolling, but is it up to us to enforce no trolling? This is the big question and my whole point…

Now I’m not going to try to point out what we should do or shouldn’t do, but what I feel we would consider about this whole issue since:

- The AMV community and contest our there are continuing to mushroom at a HUGE rates, more and more conventions are now running contests and tons of overlapping deadlines, so will this problem become worse?
- As we evolve and continue forward, will our views and opinion on trolling change?
- What do we care about more, winning or having our videos shown to audience?
- Is trolling also considered for the same people always take a finalist spot in contests even for different videos?
- Show all contest have the rules that if must not have been seen anywhere and you have to be present to win? If so, how will it impact conventions and people who can’t come to them and is this being unfair the some (consider someone living in a country where they can’t get a visa to visit the North America)? Also, if this what the community wants contest to do and if so who will enforce it?

In summary, I just want to point out that this is not a Black and White issue by far and that it’s always easy to take sides in this without considering the consequences or true intentions. Now I know I may be flamed for my opinion, but I stand by it and this also applies to any contest I run as well. I really hope it doesn’t have to come down to AMV contest having to make 3 pages of rules just on trolling so they don’t get flamed or misunderstood by creators entering…

Vlad

I really wish I would have known about this earlier before I posted all that stuff today. Time to read the back log!

[anneke]

I think conventions should cater to the 'local' creator more then the non-local creator. Why? Because the local creator the creator who attends is putting money into the convention. They are supporting the convention, to assure there will be a convention the next year, and thus a contest next year. The convention is for the fans. Those creators who attend the convention are part of that 'fan-base' the convention is for. The convention is not for the fans who don't attend the convention. Conventions are for those who pay for them, otherwise conventions wouldn't charge admission.

Anneke

[hackerzc]

First, I want to say sorry for the double posts (it annoys some people), but this happens from time to time.

Ok. I have pretty much read what you all have said. And since I am the one responsible for the entire argument in the first place (I brought up the topin on the mailing list, and in two two different forum topics. Sure It started out as just talkign about PCM, and the results and stuff but some how things got out of hand). So if you want to blame anyone, blame me (people hat eme, I'm used to it).

Now, onto my totally unfiltered, unbiast, I'm an asshole and proud of it, you want the tryuth you can't handle the truth, opinion on the WHOLE sorted mess.

First Vlad, dwchang, you guys are too nice and forgiving you know that? You have good souls. I just wanted you to know that.
Now on to me. As for what Vlad is sayign about needing to have 3 pages of rules on trolling at convention, perhaps that is EXACTLY what needs to be done. Everyone Says this is not a black or white topic, and they are right. So why the hell don't we draw some lines in the sand, and if anyone crosses them we blow the hell out of them with our BFG's!?!?!?

right now, the way it has been defined to me, the clear line between trolling and not trolling is based on one simple rule. WHEN SUBMISSIONS WERE SENT. The way it is now, it does not matter how many, when, or which con you send to, as long as you send too every one at once. This is how people are "beating" the no trolling rules currently imposed. It is also this rule that is causing the argument in the first place because a number of people believe that this exception is being exploited (either actively or passively by creators). I am among the number that believes it is being exploited.

Here is MY personal guide line for what counts as Trolling. Feel free to voice your opinions on this as I am always trying to revise this view in an attempt to possibly create a universaly accepted rule.
===============================================
1) Submisison limitations
a:You may send to as many cons as you deem fit (individualy, meaning one at a time), allowing the video for a one year circut life (ie: if you do not win at a convention, feel free to continue to send to convention until either you win, or one circut year has passed and you have not won. Obviously if you have submitted to many cons throughout the year and have not won anything, it is time to try something new). If at any point you win an award, discontinue the submission of the video to any future convention.
b:No repeat submissions (ie: do not send the same loosing [or winning video for that matter] video from otakon 2002, to oakon 2003 in an attempt to win. This rule will be further extended to include non compeating entries. No one want to see the same vid, at the same con twice, no matter what capacity it may be in.
c:In the event you have submitted to overlapping conventions and have one an award, please refer to section 1.1 below.

1.1) Multiple conventions
a:If submitting to multiple cons at once, limit yourself to 4 (meaning, if you insist on sending to multiple cons at once, in essence taking advantage of the current trolling loophole, keep the number of submissions to a managable size, and keep track of the results of the contest. If the contests overlap, meaning you win the first contest after the submission deadline for the second, by all means compeat in the second, but seriously consider pulling the remaining submission you made in which the submission deadline has not yet expired). he way I look at it, it is not trolling if you won an award AFTER the submission deadline for your second submission. However if you win an award before the submission deadline for a second submission, you are guilty of Trolling.
b:If submitting to multiple local or distant cons in close proximity to each other(ie: Otakon and Katsucon are relitively close to eachother in location) and you win at one con, pull your video from the second if the submission deadline is not already expired. If the second submission deadline is already past at the time of your recieving the award, please refer to 1.1a.
c:If submitting to a convention in which the contest and submission deadline are far apart temporaly (ie: one is in Spring, one is in Winter), and you win the contest in Winter. Have your second submisison pulled.
c2:If the second submission is to be shown in a seperate country, consult the rules and cordinator of the contest for their stance on the subject. It is recommended that the second submission be pulled from competition and changed into a noncompeating entry (see: 1.1d). If this is not possible then pull the video.
d:At any time between submission and pre-screening (where aplicable) you may instead of pulling your video from the con all together, simply request the it be changed to non compeating status. If non compeating status in not an option, and you have previously won an award, pull the video.
e:You may at any time enter any contest, any number of times as you deem fit, as long as the submission is non compeating and is in accordance with rule 1b.

2) Online contests
a:Online contests are a totally seperate topic all together as there are many differences between them and live convention screening. The most notable differences are the fact that you do not have an audiance, and there are no borders online so regional entries are not an issue.
In the light of this, it is deemed exceptable to enter as many, as ofter, for as long as you want. IE: there are no limitations with one exception (refer to 1b.================================================

That is all I have now. I am sure if I sat down with a few guys/girls we could seriously hammer out something worth wild that everyone would except.
Infact, I would liek to take this time to announce a new coalition of artists that will be dedicated to creating and enforcing these set of rules in the future. If the idea catches on and people join then great, if no one is interested then I least I can say I tryed to do something to fix the problems. Those interested should email me directly at hackerzc@westware.8m.com
Now back to my rant.

As far as the audiance is concerned, I currently don't do this for the audiance. I would like to think I do, but the truth of the matter is I do it for myself. I do it so I can sit back in a warm June day, hit the play button, sit back and enjoy something I CREATED.
What the audiance needs to understand is that there is an entire world of politics, legality, creativity, and education behind what we do. To say that we are here to entertain you is like saying the sun was put there just for us (I am refering to the infered scientific evidence which stats it is not, I want to make it clear that I am not refering to religion at all as that is an entirely different bag of tricks all together). So it's just not as simple as "we want the popular videos".
It's also not just as simple as people wanting awards and what not. I would be lying if I said it was not part of it, but believe me when I say it has far more to do with exposure.

Ok, to be honest I've been sitting here typing this for a while now and I need to seriously take a break and gather my thoughts before I can respond any further. Maybe I will just see your thoughts on what I have said so far.

[BaHaRa]

ok this is in response to posts in the otakon thread

please,,,read my posts before responding i feel like this is getting a bit redundant



"But it quite clearly is the intention now. "

like i said, i am in the process of withdrawing from a bunch of cons. its too late to withdraw from cons that already happened, although in some ways that would be nice but still its stupid to complain about a win. if you want to say my intentions are that of a troll because i am refusing to withdraw from a select con, fine you can do that, im just trying to show this was all not meant to happen by dropping most of the others.

Hacker:

"As for not being able to compress the video to upload it, that is such a crock. If you can make it into a format that is exceptable for These cons you submitted to then you obviously have the knowlege to upload it online. "

we have been running into trouble, you can call me a newbie but if you try to say that its a load of crap, i couldnt care any less cuz at that point you're talking out of your a**

"You claim to not know how to encode the video for upload, yet you have another video in your profile which is readily available for downlaod"

okay, please go read my post that you replied to, i commented on this

oh and thanks for the link, someone else in our 'studio' perse will check it out when this is all settled


dwchang:

"I do suggest rethinking some of the contests you submitted to that aren't happening for A LONG time out and definitely had a submission deadline AFTER your wins"

yeah, that is what we've been doing, i know you understand this, but to anyone who doesnt i want to at least say we submitted thinking if we didnt break rules we were fine (this is before all of this). now back to you: we have withdrawn from a couple, and we will get to most of the others. we dont have that many opportunities to all be in the same room, and i have literally been busy every minute this week. i have been posting between studying sessions and in between actual test taking.



"I know of a few contests you are in that are a long way out there in both deadline and the actual contest and for you to enter them after a few wins seems a bit contradictory wouldn't you think? Now in case you're wondering why I'd know this, I'm friends with a number of coordinators and thus we've discussed the issue and this came up. "


like i said above



damn...im tired, sorry for typos or if i missed responding to anything

and btw, sorry for the thread hijack matt

[dwchang]

First Vlad, dwchang, you guys are too nice and forgiving you know that? You have good souls. I just wanted you to know that.

Haha, you obviously don't know me very well or that Canadian bastad either

I am among the number that believes it is being exploited.

As am I...

>>RE: your rules

For the most part I agree with your rules except for slightly different things on numbers like 1 win, to say 2 wins. Also exceptions to things like AWA Expo and so on. However, it seems to be reasonable and in-line with what I think.

That is all I have now. I am sure if I sat down with a few guys/girls we could seriously hammer out something worth wild that everyone would except.

The main problem as I stated above is that there can't be a clear-cut definition since everyone has different definitions based on when they feel they have received adequate recognition. Also contests are in charge of how they handle this as well.

Although I find your rules pretty fair and reasonable, who am I (or anyone else for that matter) to say when a video IS trolling (of course I can feel it is, but I mean like define it as a community decision). That's the inherent problem of this...err...problem.

As far as the audiance is concerned, I currently don't do this for the audiance. I would like to think I do, but the truth of the matter is I do it for myself. I do it so I can sit back in a warm June day, hit the play button, sit back and enjoy something I CREATED.

Yeah that's how I feel as well. I like trying to re-create a vision in my head as accurately as possible...to see if I can do it. If people like it WHEE, if I win a contest WHEE, etc. I'd be lying if I said winning doesn't mean something, but at the same time...I'll live.

The problem I am having, as I stated above is that ALMOST EVERYONE says this and yet their behavior seems to suggest otherwise. Now as I said I can't say FOR SURE that someone IS trolling and whatnot, but to me personally it makes my opinion of others falter a bit.

In any case, I do applaud your efforts to consolidate this, but it's nearly impossible to DEFINE such rules for this situation and I hate to be the pessimist, but I only see it getting worse since well...I see no way to fix this.

Sadly the solution is just like wishing for "world peace." It basically comes down to creators respecting each other and their works and thinking about others before yourself. This is an inherent problem in any community and will continue so long as humans possess these traits (wanting recognition and winning) and so on.

Again I do applaud your try at it though.

[dwchang]

dwchang:

"I do suggest rethinking some of the contests you submitted to that aren't happening for A LONG time out and definitely had a submission deadline AFTER your wins"

yeah, that is what we've been doing, i know you understand this, but to anyone who doesnt i want to at least say we submitted thinking if we didnt break rules we were fine (this is before all of this). now back to you: we have withdrawn from a couple, and we will get to most of the others. we dont have that many opportunities to all be in the same room, and i have literally been busy every minute this week. i have been posting between studying sessions and in between actual test taking.

Don't feel the necessity to take videos out of contests because of what I feel or say. As I have said numerous times, this is a decision that should be made by yourself (or in your group) and how YOU feel about the video...does it deserve more recognition? Have you submitted to enough? What do I think of other's opinion of me? and so on.

Please don't just do something because people are angry. I'd much rather prefer it when someone does what they want and not be forced into something. I do however applaud that you are thinking about it.

One more thing, as you stated in your reply, no you're not breaking any rules and if this is sufficient justification for yourself, then there you go. Do that, it is YOUR decision, not ours. However, let me state the reason rules are not the only thing to consider (within the context of the community). Basicaly there are unsaid rules about trolling and contests that are just about respect and a fininte amount of recognition around. This is just something that is unsaid and it's preposterous for anyone to think you'd know this.

Regardless at least you know now and can think it through.

[hackerzc]

First Vlad, dwchang, you guys are too nice and forgiving you know that? You have good souls. I just wanted you to know that.

Haha, you obviously don't know me very well or that Canadian bastad either

Eh, I give up.
I'm gona go do my own thing, screw you guys, I'm going home!

[BaHaRa]

Don't feel the necessity to take videos out of contests because of what I feel or say. As I have said numerous times, this is a decision that should be made by yourself (or in your group) and how YOU feel about the video...does it deserve more recognition? Have you submitted to enough? What do I think of other's opinion of me? and so on.

Please don't just do something because people are angry. I'd much rather prefer it when someone does what they want and not be forced into something. I do however applaud that you are thinking about it.

One more thing, as you stated in your reply, no you're not breaking any rules and if this is sufficient justification for yourself, then there you go. Do that, it is YOUR decision, not ours. However, let me state the reason rules are not the only thing to consider (within the context of the community). Basicaly there are unsaid rules about trolling and contests that are just about respect and a fininte amount of recognition around. This is just something that is unsaid and it's preposterous for anyone to think you'd know this.

Regardless at least you know now and can think it through.

i would say we have all been more than a little bit influence by everyones thoughts on this issue. however, i think we are most influenced by the informative posts here rather than the angry ones. i think its been made pretty obvious that we were a bit uninformed lol. i suppose this is what i get for really only reading the anime forum for so long.


thanks for posting on these last few threads

[dwchang]

i would say we have all been more than a little bit influence by everyones thoughts on this issue. however, i think we are most influenced by the informative posts here rather than the angry ones. i think its been made pretty obvious that we were a bit uninformed lol. i suppose this is what i get for really only reading the anime forum for so long.


thanks for posting on these last few threads

Well, I guess all I'm getting at is that I don't want you to feel forced into doing something. Your decisions to be just that...YOURS.

Regardless, I'm also glad to see that, for the most part, the replies have been fairly calm and not flamatory which in turns leads to results and understanding.

Glad I could help and I wish you luck on your future endeavors.