Evangelion: Classic or Overrated?

[Metro]

As for this Red Cross book... I have never read it. I don't know if it is a trustworthy source of information and so I can't respond to anything that comes from it.

I highly reccomend that anyone interested in Eva (especially those who like to argue about it ) go out and read the RCB. As for its authenticity, it was certified by Gainax as being true. It is cannon.

RCB

I will certainly inquire about this Red Cross book and see what information I can find... but unless it comes from Anno himself, I won't give it much merrit. I know that many in GAINAX didn't know what the hell the show was about and that there was internal conflict in the studio.

Internal conflict in the studio? Got a source?

[Wykith]

I've posted like five official, certified sites that explain EVA head to toe. Demonstrating a nearly painfully obvious genious plot line.
No one reads them.
They're too caught up believing their own bullshit, too lazy, or just too damn ignorant to understand it even when it's written for them in crayon.

[dwchang]

I will also admit that I don't know how the EVAs generate the AT field... I don't know if they REQUIRE the pilots... or if it is because of their angelic nature... but I KNOW that the only EVA that is more than an imprint is Unit 01... because it has the soul of Yui in it...

Nothing in the TV show ever indicated that EVA 02 had anything special beyond an imprint. In the show, Asuka is NEVER able to generate the kind of power that Shinji does... and I don't believe it is because of anything special about Shinji...
-Uncle Milo

an AT field is the light of the soul, it stop overs from hurting you, it is a barrier that must never be crossed, this is stated by kwarou, who also does say that the soul of unit 2 is hiding, this leads me to believe that unit 2 has a soul, if not, he would seem a bit of a idiot for making such a statement.

As for the scene in the movie with Asuka....
1) I believe Asuka's rush of power is because of Asuka. She senses her mother's imprint and this inspires her. It is her own inspiration that powers up the EVA... because it was Asuka's depression that lowered her ability to control her own EVA

2) Unlike Shinji's EVA... Asuka's EVA still shuts down once it runs out of power and it DOES NOTHING.

3) There is no imagry (such as a spirit of Asuka's mother as was shown once or twice with EVA 01) which indicates ANYTHING that gives me even a shadow of a doubt that Unit 02 contains nothing more than an imprint of Asuka's mother.

-Uncle Milo

during asuka last battle, she sees her mother inside the eva, much like shinji saw his mother when he was trapped inside the angel in that episode with the scary sphere (i cant remember episode number right now, still half asleep), also asuka's eva began to berserk after being torn apart, this requires the soul of the eva, as there was no power to the eva at this point. seeing as how eva 01 moves without power, due to having a soul, this must be the case for unit 02 aswell

Grr..I wanted to reply with all this . I'm glad someone agree though . I have talked to UncleMilo via PM and I think he is getting frustrated by "someone" in this thread since regardless of how much EVIDENCE (from the show mind you) is presented they stick to their own theories. I did however write similar statements to your own about Eva02. I also wrote that it didn't matter since most of us do seem to agree the overlying point of Eva in general Shinji development and triumph. That's all that really matters IMO. To miss that about Eva is to well...just watch a show about robots .

[dwchang]

As for this Red Cross book... I have never read it. I don't know if it is a trustworthy source of information and so I can't respond to anything that comes from it.

I highly reccomend that anyone interested in Eva (especially those who like to argue about it ) go out and read the RCB. As for its authenticity, it was certified by Gainax as being true. It is cannon.

RCB

I will certainly inquire about this Red Cross book and see what information I can find... but unless it comes from Anno himself, I won't give it much merrit. I know that many in GAINAX didn't know what the hell the show was about and that there was internal conflict in the studio.

Internal conflict in the studio? Got a source?

Grr...I posted this two pages ago...thief .

I am unsure if Anno helped out in the production of the RCB, but like you I believe it. I mean..Anno DID love Eva and I don't think he'd just let a random staffer write a book that was passed out AT the movie. This was obviously a BIG deal in Japan since it was passed out AT the movie theaters showing EoE and for him to care so little about what was being called "the truth" I find highly unlikely.

He loves Eva (like all creators love their work) enough that he'd want the "real" truth be revealed as opposed to some random janitor's theories being called the official word. Then again, it's debateable he may have been against the entire thing and wanted to keep it mysterious (esp. since this stuff isn't vital...just story ).

[dwchang]

I've posted like five official, certified sites that explain EVA head to toe. Demonstrating a nearly painfully obvious genious plot line.
No one reads them.
They're too caught up believing their own bullshit, too lazy, or just too damn ignorant to understand it even when it's written for them in crayon.

Well one thing I find unlikely is five official sites. How do they get certified or whatnot?

However, I do agree that a lot of people just keep believing their own bullshit since they like it more than the creator's "truth." I hate to break it to you, but there are RIGHT and WRONG answers in the creator's head. He had a vision, a message and a story. It just so happens that MOST of it is IN THE SHOW. I don't find that many things abstract at all or have enough room for argument.

If you don't choose to accept them, that would make you wrong...ignorance is bliss I guess.

And since I know a reply will come (again) about how the RCB isn't right. I am also referring to the cold, hard facts in the show. You can't argue with well...images and lines in the show. Then again, people DO argue them since, as you said, they want to believe their own bullshit instead. Which begs another questions...why do people do that? I mean the truth is...the truth.

[the Black Monarch]

Black Monarch - What color is the sky where you live?

Fuschia. Why?

All the things I have said are IN THE SHOW. I have no interest in discussing EVA with someone who doesn't even pay attention to the show. A show like this requires thought, intelligence, and the capacity to make leaps of judgement based on the evidence.

I've paid more attention to detail in that show than 99% of the people that I've talked to about it. I'm still wondering what the books in Rei's apartment are, and why she has so many pages bookmarked.

As for this Red Cross book... I have never read it.

Good for you. Don't. It's not worth the time.

All my comments come from the evidence that exists in the show.

That's debatable...

I'm not interested in any source of information other than the show.

Right on!

To my knowledge... ALL THE EVAs (Units 00, 01 and 02) are made from Lillith. Lillith was in the spot where NERV was built long before NERV... long before Adam caused 2nd Impact.

Given that Adam and the Lance of Longinus were moved from their original location (antarctica), and that Lillith is nailed to a cross, and that there's really nothing to suggest that she was there all along, I doubt that she was there the whole time.

The implication I have taken from the show is that Lillith was the only Angel they had available to make genetic copies from.

Adam was available as well, although we don't know how long that has been the case. Was he retrieved on that return trip to Antarctica, or was he buried in the ice until Kaji forked him over to Gendo?

Furthermore... units 00, 01 and 02 all take their designs from the descriptions of the children of Lillith as described in the Khaballa... which is certainly not concrete evidence, but certainly indicates to me that this is just a clever way to further explain that Units 00 - 02 are all made from Lillith (and therefore, her "children")

That's a very cool theory, but in EOE, Keel calls Unit 01 the sole child of Lillith. That means the other Evas aren't her children. Sorry.

I will also admit that I don't know how the EVAs generate the AT field... I don't know if they REQUIRE the pilots... or if it is because of their angelic nature...

My money is on the angelic nature bit. This would explain why none of the pilots can generate AT fields outside their Evas except Rei.

but I KNOW that the only EVA that is more than an imprint is Unit 01... because it has the soul of Yui in it...

Again, you say you know it for fact, but you can't prove it.

Nothing in the TV show ever indicated that EVA 02 had anything special beyond an imprint.

Umm... watch the movie again. Pay attention to the part just before Unit 02 stands up to throw the battleship. Asuka starts talking to her mom. This is hardy proof, but it does count as an "indication."

In the show, Asuka is NEVER able to generate the kind of power that Shinji does... and I don't believe it is because of anything special about Shinji...

S2 engine/unti/organ from the eaten Angel? I don't remember Unit 01 with an unusually high amount of power until after that episode.

As for the scene in the movie with Asuka....
1) I believe Asuka's rush of power is because of Asuka. She senses her mother's imprint and this inspires her. It is her own inspiration that powers up the EVA... because it was Asuka's depression that lowered her ability to control her own EVA

That sounds reasonable, but it doesn't explain how she powers up without, well, power.

2) Unlike Shinji's EVA... Asuka's EVA still shuts down once it runs out of power and it DOES NOTHING.

Not true. After getting skewered in the head, Unit 02 manages to power up long enough to get skewered by the rest of the lances.

3) There is no imagry (such as a spirit of Asuka's mother as was shown once or twice with EVA 01) which indicates ANYTHING that gives me even a shadow of a doubt that Unit 02 contains nothing more than an imprint of Asuka's mother.

Again, Asuka's conversation with her mom just before throwing the battleship.

Again... I base all my opinions from evidence from the shows. While I certainly don't suggest I have all the answers, I will stand behind my views, because I have found evidence in the show to support my views.

Sadly, much of that evidence is faulty and/or kept to yourself.

I will certainly inquire about this Red Cross book and see what information I can find... but unless it comes from Anno himself, I won't give it much merrit. I know that many in GAINAX didn't know what the hell the show was about and that there was internal conflict in the studio.

Will you be my friend?

[dwchang]

My money is on the angelic nature bit. This would explain why none of the pilots can generate AT fields outside their Evas except Rei.

Uhm...all human beings have an AT field. This is a fundamental thing in the show. The reason we turn to goo is b/c of the "Anti-AT field" generated by the "ceremony" or whatnot. Need evidence? Watch the show. It's in there. It talks about how they are generating an anti-AT field and that we can't hold our physical form like this. Anti, would imply it destroys ours AT fields.

Also as Atomic has noted, Kawrou also says these things in pretty clear statements that we have AT fields since they are the barrier to the soul. Although this was being used since the EVAs have their own AT fields and in rebuttal to you saying Eva02 had no soul in it. As I said...you need a soul to have an AT field. It's debateable it's that of the pilots, but well..that is a pretty strong AT field yes?

UncleMilo wrote:
Nothing in the TV show ever indicated that EVA 02 had anything special beyond an imprint.


Umm... watch the movie again. Pay attention to the part just before Unit 02 stands up to throw the battleship. Asuka starts talking to her mom. This is hardy proof, but it does count as an "indication."

However, I thought you said Eva02 doesn't have a soul and Asuka was just delusional. You *did* say that awhile yes? If not a soul what? You are implying there is something more than an imprint (like I am) except I'm curious as to what you think it is.

I think there is plenty of evidence (see above) that Eva02 has a soul in it and the only one that makes sense is Asuka's mother.

Not true. After getting skewered in the head, Unit 02 manages to power up long enough to get skewered by the rest of the lances.

Yup, I PMed him with the same response .

UncleMilo wrote:
3) There is no imagry (such as a spirit of Asuka's mother as was shown once or twice with EVA 01) which indicates ANYTHING that gives me even a shadow of a doubt that Unit 02 contains nothing more than an imprint of Asuka's mother.


Again, Asuka's conversation with her mom just before throwing the battleship.

Yup. In fact, I watched that scene again on DVD and there is a clear solid white silouette (sp) reaching out towards Asuka in EoE, similar to that of Shinji's mother in that Episode with the Sphere. I again however, am curious as to why you are saying these things since you clearly stated that neither Evas have souls.

Sadly, much of that evidence is faulty and/or kept to yourself.

Will you be my friend?

Well...err...I think UncleMilo won't be back on this thread. I have talked to him a number of times about Eva and he's actually getting quite frustrated with you. I think this is mainly due to the fact you won't look at the "facts" (it's up to you). However, the majority of things I agree with Milo on...the things I don't (Eva02 having a soul and whatnot) are minor and he and I both agree to that.

I still think you should seriously think about this Shinji thing. I think you misinterpret us. We aren't saying the other characters aren't important, but they aren't the MAIN character. You mentioned how they say in Episode 26 that they don't have time to do all the people's instrumentatlity, but at the same time, the movie and episode focus on him. Also, I might add that Shinji was in control of instrumentality and rejected it. He is still the central character and his growth and triumph is what the story revolves around. The other characters and their interactions with him and their growths are also important, but Shinji is still the fundamental piece.

I think that is why he got frustrated since well...to him (as well as myself), this is fairly obvious. I think you got something for Rei or well...you do defend her a lot .

[dwchang]

BTW you're free to believe what you want about the show, but at the same time, some of us believe you can't argue with things IN the show (or at least were obvious to us). It's up to you regardless though. I guess it's a matter of opinion if we are seeing things differently, but we aren't using some website or whatever...this is all stuff in the show, which I guess could be interpretted differently...but I guess that's why we're discussing it.

[Metro]

Grr...I posted this two pages ago...thief .

Well I first posted a link to RCB 14 July 2002 in this thread. I think you are the thief

Ah its too bad UncleMilo won't be back, I was interested in knowing what source said there was Internal conflict at GAINAX

whatever...this is all stuff in the show, which I guess could be interpreted differently...but I guess that's why we're discussing it.

I think this is one of the major points of the show. I have heard that the reason that Anno made the show was to get people to talk. If this is true he sure as hell succeeded. It is my theory that Anno intentionally hid key aspects of Eva from the audience. I believe this was done to get the audience to argue and discuss “what was behind that next curtain.”

I also believe that the logic in Eva is intentionally circular. You can't figure out Eva. A good example of this is the size of the Evas. In one scene the Evas are as big as a mountain, the next scene may have them hiding behind a building, followed by the Evas climbing a building. Now it is rather well known that this was done on purpose so that the animators could have more freedom to tell the story. However, I believe that this freedom was applied to all of Eva in an effort to tell a better story; from the characters to the script.

But then again this is all just my opinion ^_^

And here is an interesting but unsubstantiated trivia question

The original script for EoE contained a live action alternate reality scene. This live action section did not make it into the final version of the movie but you can see portions of itin the EoE trailer.

In the live action part of EoE Who did Asuka sleep with?

[dwchang]

I think this is one of the major points of the show. I have heard that the reason that Anno made the show was to get people to talk. If this is true he sure as hell succeeded. It is my theory that Anno intentionally hid key aspects of Eva from the audience. I believe this was done to get the audience to argue and discuss “what was behind that next curtain.”

Well I agree to a degree. I think Anno did want discussion, but I still Eva is fundamentally about Human Beings and their relationships with each other. The whole show is about Shinji finally realizing this and living his life (even to the point of rejecting a false, although perfect, reality). I believe that the plot elements and story (which we arguing about and are extremely cool) were just a vehicle for Anno to say what he wanted. In theory he could've done it with any other genre or even medium. This also correlates with things going on in his life as well as...wel...the show.

The original script for EoE contained a live action alternate reality scene. This live action section did not make it into the final version of the movie but you can see portions of itin the EoE trailer.

In the live action part of EoE Who did Asuka sleep with?

I'm gonna say Kaji for some odd reason.