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Ashton
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Post by Ashton » Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:26 am

jonmartensen wrote:So you're configuring multiple IDE hard drives in a RAID format?
Mais oui!
Yes, of course, what did you think I meant when I said RAID IDE? Yes, I plan to buy four 30 gig hard drives and hook them up to the two controllers on the RAID card. Then I will format all four so that they act in unison. This is the beauty and wonder of RAID 5. All those of you who don't know what it is should DEFINATELY do your reading, something very cool that I think more people should take advantage of in the home PC market!
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klinky
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Post by klinky » Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:00 am

32bit 33Mhz PCI bus limit is : 133MBytes/sec

Most current motherboard support that version of PCI.

While it is possible for 4 hard drives operating at maxs to saturate that. The chances of it actually causing your computer to slow down, I think, would be slim. Since you're transfering that much data off the hard drives, whatever you're transfering would go through quite quickly. Unless you need to quickly shove 10GB through in a matter of seconds, I doubt you'll notice any actual bottlenecking.

Most of the time, video editing doesn't rely alot on raw disk performance(unless you're working with uncompressed source). So while playing back that divx file, or encoding that video, it's only going to use a small SMALL percentage of your hard drive i/o.

Your CPU is most likely going to be the limiting factor in how quickly you produce video.

I would suggest you not go with a RAID setup. A) Finding 30GB drives that provide as much performance as current drives would be a pain B) 30GB cost more per GB then their higher capacity cousins C) More drives = more moving parts = greater chance of one of them dying and with RAID0, that means if one dies, ALL THE DATA ON THE OTHER DRIVES DIE WITH IT.

For the price of four 30GB drives & a RAID controller, you could get two Western Digital 120GB 7200RPM drives with a 8MB cache. These are good fast, reliable drives. With two of them you'll have twice as much hard drive as the four 30GB as well. :\

Then the CPU comes into play. I run a 1.4Ghz Athlon XP. I get near realtime MPEG2 decoding through AVISynth. However, I like to add IVTC, 2DCleaning and a Bicubic or Lanzcos resize to it. That all adds up to more CPU cost. So my spiffy 20 something framerate goes down around 2 - 7fps.

However, I have PC133 Cas3 SDRAM(1280MB tho ;)) and a crappy SDRAM/DDR chipset motherboard. So if I had better memory and a better chipset I would probably get a bit better performance.

Currently the chipset leader is the Nforce2 with dual channel DDR memory. You'd want to get that if you were going to do a single processor system. As for dual processor systems, AMD is really the only option. Dual P4 Xeons are out of anyones price range. However with AMD, you'll have to pay a premium on the board and the memory. You must use Registered DDR memory with a dual Athlon. Registered memory is about 2x the cost of the bargin bin stuff.

I am not sure what "DMP" is, dual CPUs are known also as "SMP" that's the closest I can find that matches what you're saying there. Using a SMP system could help PCI bottle neck, since the SMP chipsets support either 64bit 33Mhz PCI or 32Bit 66Mhz PCI, which ups the bandwidth to 266MB/sec.

>_> took me a bit but I priced out some systems. Note that these prices are not solid, they could change day to day. They came off pricewatch and I used various vendors not just one, so you could save or spend $100 - $200. Also you must know how to build el computoro yourself, or have a friend who can.


Athlon XP 2400+ 1.93Ghz CPU @ 134 or 2100(1.67Ghz) + @ $80
Epox RDA Nforce2 Motherboard @ 92
2x 512MB Micron pc2700(333Mhz) @ 124(62ea)
2x 120GB Western Digital 7200RPM, 8MB cache @ $280(140ea)
Chaintech Geforce4 64MB ti4200 @ $110
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz @ $58.00
Lite-on 52X24X52 CDRW Drive @ 48
Lite-On 16X DVD Drive @ 35
350Watt AMD approved ATX case @ 35
Keyboard/Mouse/Floppy @ 30
------------------------
$946
$591 : 1.67Ghz, 512MB DDR, 1x 120GB hard drive



2x Athlon MP 2400+ 2.0Ghz CPUs @ 424(212ea) or
---or 2x Athlon XP 2400+ 1.93Ghz CPU @ 268 NOT GARUNTEED TO WORK!!!!
MS-6501 K7 Dual AMD Board @ 187
2x 512MB Micron REGISTERED pC2100(266Mhz) @ 152(76ea)
2x 120GB Western Digital 7200RPM, 8MB cache @ $280(140ea)
Chaintech Geforce4 64MB ti4200 @ $110
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz @ $58.00
Lite-on 52X24X52 CDRW Drive @ 48
Lite-On 16X DVD Drive @ 35
400Watt AMD approved ATX case @ 53
Keyboard/Mouse/Floppy @ 30
-------
$1377
$1161 1x 120GB, 1x 512MB
$1221 using non-approved XPs instead of MPs
$1005 using non-approved XPs instead of MPs, 1x 120GB, 1x 512MB


You could make it even cheaper. If you don't play games or don't really care about super-duper sound, you could just use the onboard sound and get a Geforce2mx card. That'd reduce the price about $137 on any of hte above systems.

~Most~ Athlon XPs work in MP mode, they have all the circuitry needed to work in dual cpu system. They are not tested by AMD to ensure that it works properly. In fact some say that Athlons that failed to work in a SMP setup but functioned fine as a single processor are relabeled as XPs.

I don't think you're saving enough money to justify going for XPs instead of MPs. :|



~klinky

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Post by klinky » Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:10 am

You mention RAID5, striping + parity. While this seems like a ok solution. I don't think any motherboards support it onboard.

Even if it did, it would probably be a software type chip solution and would make your computer sluggish.

You also loose a entire hard drive to it. It will allow you to retrieve a single hard drive if one of the others fail.

The cheapest Raid5 controller I found was $165 off pricewatch.

The cost of the controller & "wasting" a whole drive is what keeps people away I bet.


~klinky

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jonmartensen
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Post by jonmartensen » Sat Feb 22, 2003 12:51 pm

Ashton wrote:
jonmartensen wrote:So you're configuring multiple IDE hard drives in a RAID format?
Mais oui!
Yes, of course, what did you think I meant when I said RAID IDE? Yes, I plan to buy four 30 gig hard drives and hook them up to the two controllers on the RAID card.
OK, as Klinky pointed out the PCI bus can handle 133MBytes/sec

Realisticly with the RAID controller using 4 IDE hard drives you will get around 80MBytes/sec, so no worry there. But if you do that kind of set up, you'll use an extra 2% or so of your cpu processes than normal.

I really don't think I can give you mcuh help on the hardware specs right now because when you have the cash to purchase your computer a whole slew of new and faster products will be on the market. All I can say is stick with the regular IDE HD setup and don't bother buying a RAID controller.
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Post by Ashton » Sat Feb 22, 2003 1:19 pm

klinky wrote:You mention RAID5, striping + parity. While this seems like a ok solution. I don't think any motherboards support it onboard.

Even if it did, it would probably be a software type chip solution and would make your computer sluggish.

You also loose a entire hard drive to it. It will allow you to retrieve a single hard drive if one of the others fail.

The cheapest Raid5 controller I found was $165 off pricewatch.

The cost of the controller & "wasting" a whole drive is what keeps people away I bet.


~klinky
Wow! Thanks a BUNCH Klinky! That was all really interesting!

Gosh... you know, I must be under a whole set of misinformation. First off, I was told that RAID5 was like spreading data out over a set of hard disks so that it would it could access it from different HDDs are the same time making it faster. I wanted it faster because yes I will be using a lot of uncompressed/Huffy data. That was one of the reasons for wanting to go RAID in the first place. Will those 120 Gig drives be able to pull more than.. say... 10 MB/sec?
So... why is it that I can't get up any higher than 2 GHz? I would REALLY love to edit AVISynth files at full 23.976 FPS, and if you say proc power is the only thing that will make a difference, than I want to make it doable! I will definately be going 1 Gig DDR, so if that helps, that's good. And, yes, I was not talking about any additional filtering above importing MPEG2 and cliping the sides off.
Also, what is XP and MP? I don't know the difference.
Is the GeForce the card I should be using? Will it make a difference in my editing expirience? (I really actually don't want to be playing video games!)
I thought DMP meant Dynamic Multi Procesors, but I guess that isn't right. What do you think about that 2 proc setup? Will it help (in your opinion?)
Will I have to keep this thing rediculously cool? I don't even have air conditioning in this house, and I'm going to be puting a lot of stress on it 24/7.

Alright, thank you so much everyone!
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Post by RadicalEd0 » Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:14 pm

erm... I dunno about you but I get realtime mpeg2 decoding on my 1ghz athlon tbird pc133 sdram system :\

my l33t case:
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Post by Ashton » Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:26 pm

RadicalEd0 wrote:erm... I dunno about you but I get realtime mpeg2 decoding on my 1ghz athlon tbird pc133 sdram system :\
Through AVIsynth? You're kdding! Even I can decode mpeg2 realitime, but doing it as AVI through AVIsynth is at about 5 FPS right now (450 MHz proc)
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Post by klinky » Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:46 pm

A good overview on all the RAID techs can be found at Anandtech :
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.html?i=1491

RAID0 binds two hard drives to act like one. You get a speed boost because it alternates which drive it writes to. So when you're reading it back, it's reading the file off both drives at the same time and that improves performance.

RAID5 is like RAID0, except you have to add a extra drive to the RAID array. This drive is used soley for storing, what's known as parity information. This is basically information that can be used to recover either of the drives in case one fails. It doesn't matter which one fails. It's kinda l33t, but there is a cost in performance with it. That's why you need a hardware controller because calculating the parity information on each write would be a big burden on the cpu.

Using AVISynth, I can "decode" in realtime. However when editing you're usually, decoding, applying effect, encoding to preview codec. So my test was based on me encoding a AVSynth file with MPEG2DEC to a MJPEG file @ quality 1. This gave me inbetween 22 - 28fps. What with the DVD being 29.97fps, this was slower then realtime.

You could get something higher then 2GHz. While looking at the prices, I didn't think they were really worth it. However, if you went with a Athlon XP 2600(2.133Ghz @ 333Mhz bus). You could gain a hundred or two megahertz and it would also move you onto the 333Mhz bus, which would allow you to use your pc2700 memory to it's fullest. This would also improve speeds slightly. However, it's $100 extra for this. It would maybe provide a %5 increase. But it'd probably be worth it. If you got any higher, what with the price/performance ratio, it'd be like beating a dead horse. Such as, going from the 2600+(2.133Ghz) to the 2800+(2.25Ghz) would cost $137, that's just for a little over 100 more megahertz.

XPs are Athlons rated for single processor home/workstation systems. MPs are Athlons rated for dual processor workstations/servers. They're really the same chip, just one was garunteed to work in multi-processor configuration.

SMP stands for Symmetric Multiprocessing. For info on SMP you should check out 2cpu.com's SMP FAQ(it's rather short):

http://2cpu.com/FAQ/2cpusmpfaq.html

The WD1200JB, which is the drive I listed, it got a excellent <A href="http://www.storagereview.com/articles/2 ... >review</a> off storagereview.com.
Storagereview.com review wrote: With desktop performance and capacity vastly superior to the competition as well as a surprisingly low operating temperature, the Caviar WD1200JB reaffirms Western Digital's preeminence in the IDE desktop performance segment. In fact, for desktop usage, the JB bests all 10k RPM drives save only Maxtor's Atlas 10k III.
So it's very good, it's performance is between 48.8 - 29.2MB/sec. So it can definitely do more then 10MB/sec.

Cooling isn't that bad. A $15 cooler for each CPU cpu should do the trick. You'll probably want to get a case with a intake and outtake fan(2 fans). As well. Just to make sure air ventilates. If your home gets hot. You may think about investing in a Air Condtioner($200 :p). Save some money and get one :p. It'd be worth it, computing in the summer with a computer pumping out hot air is no fun. Also it can make the comptuer get extremely hot which could cause it to become unstable. This would happen to most any computer you got. If it's succking in 100degree air to cool off a 130 degree cpu, it's not going to be cooling that CPU down much.

Like I said earlier, if you don't play alot of games, you could yank the GF2 out, along with the Santa Cruz, slap a GF2Mx in and use the onboard sound. The onboard sound is good enough on the NforceII chipset. The GF2Mx sucks at new games however. So if you do ever plan to play a game, you'd have to upgrade your card. Video cards really don't have ANY importance on how you edit video. They won't speed up anything. Unless you use a piece of software that uses OpenGL or D3D to do editing with. Premiere doesn't do this however. The only program I know of is Combustion and that's only for particle FXs previews.


~klinky

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Ashton
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Post by Ashton » Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:29 am

klinky wrote:A good overview on all the RAID techs can be found at Anandtech :
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.html?i=1491

RAID0 binds two hard drives to act like one. You get a speed boost because it alternates which drive it writes to. So when you're reading it back, it's reading the file off both drives at the same time and that improves performance.

RAID5 is like RAID0, except you have to add a extra drive to the RAID array. This drive is used soley for storing, what's known as parity information. This is basically information that can be used to recover either of the drives in case one fails. It doesn't matter which one fails. It's kinda l33t, but there is a cost in performance with it. That's why you need a hardware controller because calculating the parity information on each write would be a big burden on the cpu.

Using AVISynth, I can "decode" in realtime. However when editing you're usually, decoding, applying effect, encoding to preview codec. So my test was based on me encoding a AVSynth file with MPEG2DEC to a MJPEG file @ quality 1. This gave me inbetween 22 - 28fps. What with the DVD being 29.97fps, this was slower then realtime.

You could get something higher then 2GHz. While looking at the prices, I didn't think they were really worth it. However, if you went with a Athlon XP 2600(2.133Ghz @ 333Mhz bus). You could gain a hundred or two megahertz and it would also move you onto the 333Mhz bus, which would allow you to use your pc2700 memory to it's fullest. This would also improve speeds slightly. However, it's $100 extra for this. It would maybe provide a %5 increase. But it'd probably be worth it. If you got any higher, what with the price/performance ratio, it'd be like beating a dead horse. Such as, going from the 2600+(2.133Ghz) to the 2800+(2.25Ghz) would cost $137, that's just for a little over 100 more megahertz.

XPs are Athlons rated for single processor home/workstation systems. MPs are Athlons rated for dual processor workstations/servers. They're really the same chip, just one was garunteed to work in multi-processor configuration.

SMP stands for Symmetric Multiprocessing. For info on SMP you should check out 2cpu.com's SMP FAQ(it's rather short):

http://2cpu.com/FAQ/2cpusmpfaq.html

The WD1200JB, which is the drive I listed, it got a excellent <A href="http://www.storagereview.com/articles/2 ... >review</a> off storagereview.com.
Storagereview.com review wrote: With desktop performance and capacity vastly superior to the competition as well as a surprisingly low operating temperature, the Caviar WD1200JB reaffirms Western Digital's preeminence in the IDE desktop performance segment. In fact, for desktop usage, the JB bests all 10k RPM drives save only Maxtor's Atlas 10k III.
So it's very good, it's performance is between 48.8 - 29.2MB/sec. So it can definitely do more then 10MB/sec.

Cooling isn't that bad. A $15 cooler for each CPU cpu should do the trick. You'll probably want to get a case with a intake and outtake fan(2 fans). As well. Just to make sure air ventilates. If your home gets hot. You may think about investing in a Air Condtioner($200 :p). Save some money and get one :p. It'd be worth it, computing in the summer with a computer pumping out hot air is no fun. Also it can make the comptuer get extremely hot which could cause it to become unstable. This would happen to most any computer you got. If it's succking in 100degree air to cool off a 130 degree cpu, it's not going to be cooling that CPU down much.

Like I said earlier, if you don't play alot of games, you could yank the GF2 out, along with the Santa Cruz, slap a GF2Mx in and use the onboard sound. The onboard sound is good enough on the NforceII chipset. The GF2Mx sucks at new games however. So if you do ever plan to play a game, you'd have to upgrade your card. Video cards really don't have ANY importance on how you edit video. They won't speed up anything. Unless you use a piece of software that uses OpenGL or D3D to do editing with. Premiere doesn't do this however. The only program I know of is Combustion and that's only for particle FXs previews.


~klinky
Wow, yeah, I just read all that stuff all over that page and it looks really great. That drive looks awsome, and I'd really love to buy two and do parity, bust I'm afraid I would be pushing the bounds of normal sane speed. There really is no need for that much speed as far as I can tell. The price definately looks right for it anyway.
Ok, so you think the idea about RAID should go out the window, and I understand, but if it isn't disk access that will get me the AVS speed, and the processors won't go high enough for it to really make a difference (I'm very seriously considering that higher bus speed, I think it makes sense, and the money seems fine, hell, with the systems you've outlined I could do this on alowance money!) what in the world am I going to do to run avs at <30 FPS? DDR, 2133 MHz proc, 72k disk, and the 333 MHz FSB still aren't going to be enough to do that? Is there anything else you can recomend paying attention to in terms of increasing AMV creation performance? What about bottlenecks in the kinds of systems that you have described? Is there any place where money is being ill placed because the item cannot be used to it's full potential anyway?
Thank you SOO much Klinky!
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Post by klinky » Sun Feb 23, 2003 5:07 am

Well even with a single Athlon XP @ 2.133Ghz on @ 333Mhz bus + DDR pc2700 + dual-channel NforceII support + the WD1200JB 7200RPM drive. That's about as tweaked as you can go.

With the system above, I am pretty sure you could probably get greater then realtime performance using a plain AVISynth script. Unless you wanted to do 2D cleaning and IVTC before hand. Those can be done after exporting your AMV, but they sometimes don't work properly that way.

You'll probably not see %100 realtime performance ALL the time since Premiere, I believe, is home to a bunch of sucky programming that hasn't really been optimized. I swear it takes just as long now to render a radial blur as it did on my 900Mhz duron :\. Even with a 500Mhz increase/increase in cache & better core design. The my 1400mhz Athlon XP seems just as slow :p

Anyways... Your best bet is to get it and try it out. You would notice a performance increase with two CPUs. ErMaC uses two cpus and says it's quite nice. You cannot use the 333Mhz XPs in a dual processor system. Though if you felt like overclocking(you'd need a motherboard that likes to overclock duals, I wouldn't reccomend overlclocking a SMP system, even then Athlons don't overclock that well) you could up the FSB higher.

You also do not get dual-channel DDR support, which provides a slight boost as well :\

Even with out those features, I think dual cpus would still give you a boost over the single processor system.

The systems above are about the best systems you could get right now with out throwing caution to the wind and buying the bleeding edge stuff.


~klinky

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