Grave of the Fireflies.

[kthulhu]

U.S.A. lost in Vietnam and though it may have pushed troops out in Desert storm, Husein is still in power. So you kicked a thief out of your friend's house, Well done! But since you're so high and mighty why didn't you catch him when you had the chance?

The supposed "high and mighty" UN told us not to, or so I've heard.

[jonmartensen]

You are overlooking that fact that the japanese were WARNED before the nuclear bombs were dropped, and when you look at the fact that they didn't surrender right after the first one, think about how far they were willing to go if those bombs WERENT dropped.

And those biological wepons the japanese were testing on real people werent speculation or opinions. You can saythe US isn't the goodguy of WW2 all you want, but it WAS the lesser of 2 evils. That cannot be denied.

CaTaClYsM, you can't justify death with more death or less death. There is no "lesser" evil. Both are equally guilty.

Right, just like a drive by is the exact same as mass genocide.

[jonmartensen]

And once again Wykith, I state: what were you relating between WWII and the events of Sep. 11?

How is the US helping oust Russian control from Afgahnistan (for the US's own personal reasons though) and then withdrawing and no longer supplying products for free to the country related to WWII.

The alliance of the free countries of the world that had millitary power, to defend against the bid for world power by a select few is hardly similary to planes being flown into buildings. The punishment for Mass Genocide is not in the least bit similar to people angry that they no longer get free supplies from the US.

Jihad was used for political purposes long before the US even existed.

They tell jews in Israel to "back off or else" from a conflict that has nothing to do with them.

I have no clue what you are talking about here, your pronoun doesn't make sense in that it refers to the US. And you seem to be stating that Muslims and Jews would get along fine if it weren't for the US.

First they bomb your home, kill your family and burn everything you own, but at least you get sandwiches afterwards.

To what cases are you refering to here? You are implying that the US bombs cities, goes in afterwards to kill your family and burn what is left, and then gives sandwiches to the survivors. I have yet to see a case of that ever happening. Aid packages are not droped in the same places as bombs, don't think that because bombs are dropped in a country it means the entire country is getting blown to pieces.

They are the self proclaimed sheriffs of the world. The final word on what's right and wrong. Acceptable and unacceptable, true and false.

That's the UN your thinking about.



And one more time so that you might finally answer my direct question to you (for the fourth time)...
How does anything in WWII being justified or justice make the "attack of Sept. 11th Justice"? And then from that reasoning make the retaliation against the perpetraitors of the Sept. 11th attack "Murder"?

[Wykith]

"Kill one man and you are called a murderer. Kill a thousand and you are called a conquerer."

[Wykith]

John, stop being so thick. The references that don't seem to make sense to you where they're coming from, that's what happened just now in Afganistan. And that's not the UN i'm talking about. The UN is a farce and a joke. The US has the right to veto anything that comes out of the UN and since everyone has an equal vote it's mostly owned by third world countries who never get what they want anyway becaused they are vetoed.

[jonmartensen]

You have yet to give me a direct answer to any of my direct questions.

"Kill one man and you are called a murderer. Kill a thousand and you are called a conquerer."

John, stop being so thick.

American involvement in the war of the middle east has caused more casualties than those lost in 911. They tell jews in Israel to "back off or else" from a conflict that has nothing to do with them. So here comes Frankenstein, tired of the U.S's "soft" oppresive tactics and kicks Uncle Sam right in the fucking nuts.

Everyone's wrong. I'm not taking a side. The Axis was based on the desire of conquest. To me that makes them wrong....way wrong.

[CaTaClYsM]

wait a second, if the US just up and out of the blue dropped those bombs then that is evil. but if they warned japan first and japan didn't surrender, then they got what they had comming. They KNEW what would happen and kept fighting anyway. And after bomb one was dropped they were threatened with number 2, and guess what happned, still no surrender. The japanese government is at least as guilty, if not then MORE so for what happened to the people in those cities. They knew full well what was going to happen to their citizens and let the US drop those bombs.

so how can you say that the US is as bad as a government that feeds starving children chocolate wiht anthax in it, or dropping insects with the plague onto villages killing people. Or hitler and his concentration camps?

[Wykith]

Apperently you don't . The usa was the good guys in world war 2 moron only a retard would argue that. Our standing army was dick before world war 2 the soldiers sent to fight were all new recruits not professional killers. They had a job to do and they did it because Germany and japan started a war. Like I said before if you start a war you better be able to finish it. The british bombed Dresden yes it was horrible. But waaaahh war is hell. Dresden is a german city so it got what it deserved. Do you have a concept of justice? If somebody malicously killed your brother for no reason what would you do? Re the Germans and the japanese in word war 2 murderous bloodthirsty bastards. The russians weren't much better but Germany attacked them not vice versa.

I was responding to this. My point is...........no matter how many people died here in comparison to how many people died there is no justification for murder.
That you can say that 911 was the catalyst for the war on terrorism just like you can say that Pearl Harbor was the catalyst for U.S's involvement in WWII.
That is only however if you ignore that Pearl Harbor happened because of the embargo and 911 happened because of the U.S's occupation of the middle east.
No one "deserves" war. That's my point John. I hope I got it across this time.......I know I can talk in spirals but they usually all point to where I'm going.

[kthulhu]

After the U.S. was done with Afganistan it abandoned them.

Yes, we did. It was foolish.

It left military personel in places the Afganistan people considered sacred and would not, despite any "peaceful" attempts by anyone, pull them out.

So we abandoned them, yet left military personnel over there? And what "peaceful" attempts?

You have to understand this is an unforgivable crime as far as muslims are concerned. Their whole p.o.v. is that America is trying to tell other people how to live their lives, what gods are okay and which ones are not. How they can treat their women, childred, and each other and how they can't.

And on the flip side, many Muslims also want the world to live the way that they say. Your point? As for us telling the Middle East what to do, the people there will sop up numerous Western ideas and goods, given the chance. Is this a good thing? Hard to tell, but the only people who have a problem with this are the Islamic clerics, religious leaders, and theocratic rulers, who stand to lose power if the people aren't afraid of the religious police or bogeymen anymore. And can anyone honestly defend many of the human rights violations that occur in the Middle East in the name of religion?

Their response to this, and pardon the continuous cursing, is Fuck you! Who the hell do you think you are!?
Now don't get me wrong I don't agree with the muslim religion but just because I don't agree with it doesn't give me the right to say that it's wrong.

What's your opinion of Christianity?

Osama bin laden hates americans. He considers them the enemy because America has it's nose in everyone's business. They come in, take what they need and leave everyone else to fend for themselves.

No, he doesn't like us because he views Americans (arguably the icon of the West) as immoral, and the fact that they were stationed in the holy Land of Sand that is Saudi Arabia angered him. As for the US plundering other countries, do you have any condemnation for the governments and leaders who allow it (US installed puppets or not)? And what about governments that plunder their own nations?

They do make the attempt to seem merciful though. First they bomb your home, kill your family and burn everything you own, but at least you get sandwiches afterwards.

In the case of Afghanistan or other conflict heavy areas of the world, the same thing happens because of local warlords, the government, even just civil strife. And you don't get sandwiches afterwards, you're lucky to be buried.

All thanx to good old thoughtful uncle Sam.

Who also provides lots of financial aid to the world, for all the non good it does.

They are the self proclaimed sheriffs of the world. The final word on what's right and wrong. Acceptable and unacceptable, true and false.

No, that would be the <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kop ... asp">UN</a>, who are trying to stop the leaking bucket that is the world with paper, while saying that their method is best, instead of getting a new bucket.

This is why I've dubbed them the evil empire. They take unnecessary liberties with the power given to them.
American involvement in the war of the middle east has caused more casualties than those lost in 911.

Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

They tell jews in Israel to "back off or else" from a conflict that has nothing to do with them. So here comes Frankenstein, tired of the U.S's "soft" oppresive tactics and kicks Uncle Sam right in the fucking nuts.
I hate that 911 happened. But more so than that I hate that there was a reason for it to have happened.
I'm in a constant political debate with a lot of people. I know people that think 911 would have never happened if Bush wasn't president. Everyone has their opinion on the matter but none of us can change the past. All we can do is try to learn from our mistakes. Too bad those who we choose to lead us can't seem to comprehend that notion.

Yes, we should learn from the causes of 9/11. That might mean moving off the world stage for a while, and seeing what happens.

[Wykith]

So we abandoned them, yet left military personnel over there? And what "peaceful" attempts?

Political delegation.

And on the flip side, many Muslims also want the world to live the way that they say. Your point?

I'm not pointing a finger. I'm saying don't point a finger because you have no right to. Thanx for proving my point though.

As for us telling the Middle East what to do, the people there will sop up numerous Western ideas and goods, given the chance. Is this a good thing?

Actually the fanatics are against all Western ideas and goods......including kites!

Hard to tell, but the only people who have a problem with this are the Islamic clerics, religious leaders, and theocratic rulers, who stand to lose power if the people aren't afraid of the religious police or bogeymen anymore. And can anyone honestly defend many of the human rights violations that occur in the Middle East in the name of religion?

I already said I don't agree with it but I know I don't have the right to judge it.

What's your opinion of Christianity?

I don't agree with it.

No, he doesn't like us because he views Americans (arguably the icon of the West) as immoral, and the fact that they were stationed in the holy Land of Sand that is Saudi Arabia angered him. As for the US plundering other countries, do you have any condemnation for the governments and leaders who allow it (US installed puppets or not)? And what about governments that plunder their own nations?

What about them? I'm not advocating anyone. I'm stating that there is no excuse for any of what's happened but action bears with it the curse of reaction.

They do make the attempt to seem merciful though. First they bomb your home, kill your family and burn everything you own, but at least you get sandwiches afterwards.

In the case of Afghanistan or other conflict heavy areas of the world, the same thing happens because of local warlords, the government, even just civil strife. And you don't get sandwiches afterwards, you're lucky to be buried.

True. Very true. So I guess you do see how silly it is to get handed a sandwich.

All thanx to good old thoughtful uncle Sam.

Who also provides lots of financial aid to the world, for all the non good it does.

Are you saying they feel guilty or that they are justifying all the wrong they do?

They are the self proclaimed sheriffs of the world. The final word on what's right and wrong. Acceptable and unacceptable, true and false.

No, that would be the <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kop ... asp">UN</a>, who are trying to stop the leaking bucket that is the world with paper, while saying that their method is best, instead of getting a new bucket.

I totally agree on the new bucket.

Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

Yeah, slavery now a days is pretty tame too. And no I'm not being sarcastic.