Grave of the Fireflies.

[Aetherfukz]

Whoa! I didn't have access to the net after work yesterday, and today I look into this thread and it's grown from 3 to 6 pages. Yeah, alot of things to discuss here...

You can blow up a country and call it a skirmish. The mobilization of troops into someone else's country is an act of war. Blowing things up in someones else's country is an act of war. So we were either at war, or we are terrorists.

Absolutely right! They can say they are fighting for peace, or "enduring freedom" how they like to call it, but one can't fight for peace. Tis an oxymoron, like fucking for virginity...
Anyways, since WWII is over, the USA behave like "teh protector of the earth". Well, kind of. Wherever there is a "skirmish" or things like that, the US have to investigate, and eventually intervene. Although this could be a good thing (preventing further damage and so on) the one target that the US like to achieve thru this behaviour is getting the lead role in world politics and (armory) industry.
It's not like it would help to kill all those Taliban with carpet bombing runs. I was sad about the thing, when the operation went on, CNN and such channels made headlines about 1 american that died, but the hundreds of Taliban who died didn't even matter.
Now I don't want to support those men. All I want to point out is, that these very men are fighting for things they believe in, not only because some politician told them to fight... but that's just another matter.

And just another fact: Now the USA try to intervene into the israeli conflict. They act like a big referee, but they are biased in this very conflict. They'd give all kinds of weapons to the israeli forces years ago, and now try to say that they didn't do something wrong...

When you stated that, what were you refering to as not believing WWII was "justice"? The US was "neutral" when it came to WWII until the bombing of Pearl Harbor by Japan. The anniversary for that was just 5 days ago, Dec. 7th for those who didn't pay attention in history class. For the US, the Japanese did start the war. The US entered the war as retaliation and with the insight that the "Axis of Evil" did not intend to stop at anything short of world power.

Well... the US weren't so "neutral" before the Pearl Harbor incident. What made the japanese attack Pearl Harbor and therefore "officially start" the war on America was this very fact: The US made a kind of embargo against the Japanese. They cut them of off the oil and natural resources from the pacific ocean and the landmasses around. So the Japanese had 2 options: Slowly run out of resources and surrender therfore after a while, or make an attack against the "owners" of this resources.

Aether: You kept an un-biased view on most of this, and were rather reasonable. I commend you for maintaining an un-objectified view.

Thanks for noticing! I always try to take an un-biased view of things, and try not to prejudge.

We lost the korean war? Or desert storm? Name one major engagement won by the vietnamese army? Libya? Granada? We have been kicking ass and taking names my friend. Afghanistan is a shithole and we are doing whats right. You and milo must go to the same school.

I don't know if you know it yet, but the US lost the Vietnam war. And that's fact. They got seriously kicked in their asses from the Vietkong.

Mmmmm.... I'd say that the US and it's allies (along with the Soviets) were definitely on the good side in WWII. Allied forces and leaders weren't the ones invading neighboring countries (well, maybe Stalin did a bit, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms) and rounding up millions of people for torment and worse just because they fit a certain racial profile and were a convenient scapegoat to rally against. If anything, I'd say the US was too slow to get into WWII. The Allied forces have (or had) little to apologize for, in my book.
Not to say that war is pretty or glamourous, but when things shake out, you can look back and say "well, they were fighting for good, they were fighting for evil". It's not always that black and white, but it's not always muddled, either.

You got point there. Sure the Axis were all evil, but that doesn't make the US the good guys respectivily. Sure, they freed (what's the past form of free ?? >.< ) the western world, and drove Hitler away (well he kinda did it himself). But there were bitches and innocent people on both sides. Not all german were Nazis, and not all Allieds were freedom troopers. It's always like that, and as you stated, it isn't just black and white.

One thing to think about the atomic bomb droppings: they showed the world the horror that they can wrought. The hesitation to use them again that the A-bombs created is a good thing.

Very true. There always was a chess-mate like situation with the atomic bombs, back in the cold war when the US and the Soviets armored who would be best in the end. I don't know if that sentence made sense, but I don't know how to better describe it in english. Anway I meant that neither of the 2 sides could drop a bomb or start a skirmish, because everyone knew that the other side had the same tactical and strategical weapons as oneself had. So it was really like chess-mate. No forward, no backwards.
And this is what bothers me at the current situation. With Russland in shambles, the US has the "right" to do what they want, because they don't have to fear the russian vengence any more...

Well, to come to an end, sorry for the long post, but I just had to say those things ^_^

Peace & Respect
~Aetherfukz

[Mroni]

lOl this thread has gotten way out hand. Aethur all I'm going to do is ask you to tell me the difference between the Vietcong and the Nva. The interment of Japanese americans was wrong but no worse than the racial hatred that directed against german americans doing world war 1. The 100thifantry division was the most decorated unit in the american army this a fact anybody who ever picked up a book on war world 2 would know and it was made up of nisei. Another fact those people that were victims of that got money. Everywhere you look you can write a book about the conspiracy theorys floating around none of them are ever provable. There are plenty of old farts sitting around that are convinced to this day that Roosevelt somehow knew that Pearl harbor was going to happen and made sure it was all set up. My friends Grandfather believes that if you go to the bottom of the lusitania(the reason we got into world war 1 for those that don't know) You will find a british torpedo. Saying the rape of Nanking didn't happen is like saying the Holocaust didn't happen. You have to convince a shitload of people that they were brainwashed and not actually victims. And finally in conclusion Mcarthur took the mess that was Japan and turned it into a great democracy show some respect to the man.


Mr Oni

[Mroni]

See and now I missed something. We cut the japanese off from oil because they wouldn't get out china. Please all I can ask of you people is to think about something before you write about it. If you have facts or links to prove what you are saying please post them. Everything I have said about world war 2 so far can be looked up in the time life books series on world war 2 it's at every library you go to and it's always there.


Mr Oni

[Aetherfukz]

lOl this thread has gotten way out hand. Aethur all I'm going to do is ask you to tell me the difference between the Vietcong and the Nva.

I'm no spelling whore, but I think you got me wrong with Arthur from the round table
True, this is going a bit off topic, but nevertheless, it is an important and discussable discussion. But for the difference between Vietkong and Nva, as far as I know, and if I recall correctly, there is no real difference. It's just that the west refered to the Viet Minh (NVA) as the Vietkong.

Peace out,
~Aetherfukz

[Wykith]

Whoa okay wait up. Every thing in this thread is open to speculation. There is no way you can bring up numbers from the holocaust and Nanking and say shit like "well you killed more people than I did so I'm not as bad as you". Yes Japan attacked U.S. because of the embargo who put the embargo to get Japan out of China.
Guess what, when you get in between two people fighting and say "you fuck with him you fuck with me." You just declared yourself part of conflict. You can claim to be "neutral" all you want but you're either in it or you're not.
Hitler was a mad man who wanted to name Berlin Olimpia for god's sake. No one is arguing how wrong the holocaust was. Anyone who does has some serious issues. And you're right...I am being biased in my opinion. I can very easily take an un-biased view to the discussion. But then I'd already know my closing statement. War is Hell. Everyone's wrong.
I'm not taking a side. The Axis was based on the desire of conquest. To me that makes them wrong....way wrong.
But to plead the role of the savior by the U.S. is also wrong. The Axis had already been defeated when the U.S. dropped the A-bomb. Japan had no more support. They would have had to give up eventually. And to say the A-bomb saved more lives than it took is childish speculation.
U.S.A. lost in Vietnam and though it may have pushed troops out in Desert storm, Husein is still in power. So you kicked a thief out of your friend's house, Well done! But since you're so high and mighty why didn't you catch him when you had the chance?
Oh and as far as justifying suicide bombers?
Get a clue. These people would rather DIE than be told how to live.
I don't think I need to justify the obvious.
Politics are riddled with innuendos and self interest. No one is pure, no one is innocent. That's all I'm trying to prove. If you disagree, let me know.

[jonmartensen]

I can't believe you would claim that WWII was "justice". I hate to say it but in this way, Sept. 11 was "justice" as well.

When you stated that, what were you refering to as not believing WWII was "justice"?

Please answer that, that is what got me started on brigning facts in to the discussion and expressing my piont of view.

That was the whole reason I brought in statistics showing that the "Axis" powers committed mass genocide on more people than all of the civilians and soldiers killed by the "allied" forces (Even including Russias horrid doings)

You got the part that the Axis was based on the desire for conquest right, but the Allied forces (except for Russia) were based solely on the prevention of Axis conquest. Why else would Germany, Italy, and Japan still be around?

It is not childish speculation to say that dropping "the bomb" killed fewer people than would have been killed if it hadn't been dropped. Of course it is speculation due to the fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed instead of continuing the war and hoping that Japan would surrender soon.

But please, answer my original question about your statement. The one that made me decide to bring facts into this discussion rather than just ramble about why I think this or that.

[jonmartensen]

And what were you relating between WWII and the events of Sep. 11?

I don't see any similarities between a suicide extremist using a civilian aircraft as a weapon against more civilians and any events that transpired in WWII. Once again I would like specific examples and fact rather than opinion backed by nothing other than opinion.

[CaTaClYsM]

You are overlooking that fact that the japanese were WARNED before the nuclear bombs were dropped, and when you look at the fact that they didn't surrender right after the first one, think about how far they were willing to go if those bombs WERENT dropped.

And those biological wepons the japanese were testing on real people werent speculation or opinions. You can saythe US isn't the goodguy of WW2 all you want, but it WAS the lesser of 2 evils. That cannot be denied.

[Wykith]

NP
I don't want to go all the way back in detail so I'll try to keep it short. Osama bin laden was made and trained the the U.S. He's their own personal Frankenstein.
The U.S. trained Afgani soilders and armed them so that they could fight back Russia. They began insisting (the U.S. mind you) that this fight would be a Jihad against the evil communist Russians. It was the U.S. that began the "propaganda" that Jihad, the meaning of Holy war, would be used for political purposes.
After the U.S. was done with Afganistan it abandoned them. It left military personel in places the Afganistan people considered sacred and would not, despite any "peaceful" attempts by anyone, pull them out.
You have to understand this is an unforgivable crime as far as muslims are concerned. Their whole p.o.v. is that America is trying to tell other people how to live their lives, what gods are okay and which ones are not. How they can treat their women, childred, and each other and how they can't.
Their response to this, and pardon the continuous cursing, is Fuck you! Who the hell do you think you are!?
Now don't get me wrong I don't agree with the muslim religion but just because I don't agree with it doesn't give me the right to say that it's wrong.
Osama bin laden hates americans. He considers them the enemy because America has it's nose in everyone's business. They come in, take what they need and leave everyone else to fend for themselves. They do make the attempt to seem merciful though. First they bomb your home, kill your family and burn everything you own, but at least you get sandwiches afterwards. All thanx to good old thoughtful uncle Sam. They are the self proclaimed sheriffs of the world. The final word on what's right and wrong. Acceptable and unacceptable, true and false. This is why I've dubbed them the evil empire. They take unnecessary liberties with the power given to them.
American involvement in the war of the middle east has caused more casualties than those lost in 911. They tell jews in Israel to "back off or else" from a conflict that has nothing to do with them. So here comes Frankenstein, tired of the U.S's "soft" oppresive tactics and kicks Uncle Sam right in the fucking nuts.
I hate that 911 happened. But more so than that I hate that there was a reason for it to have happened.
I'm in a constant political debate with a lot of people. I know people that think 911 would have never happened if Bush wasn't president. Everyone has their opinion on the matter but none of us can change the past. All we can do is try to learn from our mistakes. Too bad those who we choose to lead us can't seem to comprehend that notion.

[Wykith]

You are overlooking that fact that the japanese were WARNED before the nuclear bombs were dropped, and when you look at the fact that they didn't surrender right after the first one, think about how far they were willing to go if those bombs WERENT dropped.

And those biological wepons the japanese were testing on real people werent speculation or opinions. You can saythe US isn't the goodguy of WW2 all you want, but it WAS the lesser of 2 evils. That cannot be denied.

CaTaClYsM, you can't justify death with more death or less death. There is no "lesser" evil. Both are equally guilty.