Zeitgeist

[guy07]

Illuminati, anyone?

[Phantasmagoriat]

I wouldn't necessarily say it is more difficult to cover up a massive demolition. All you have to do is control:
a.) What information is made publicly available, and
b.) What information is made popular.

Just think of how many times you heard the word 'Terrorism' immediately after it happened,
and how nonchalantly the term 'conspiracy' is used whenever questions are raised
(a more appropriate and descriptive term would be Fabrication Theory)
Not to mention how emotionally vulnerable people are after something like 9/11
This is informational warfare.

Turn to the pentagon incident--where is the plane? The official story is that evidence was vaporized, including the two 6-ton steel/titanium-alloy engines. Then stories about the coroner's horrific job of identifying the bodies are told to appeal to peoples emotions. Most people stop asking questions after that. But you really mean to tell me that the plane was vaporized, yet the bodies held up?

For groups like Popular Mechanics, or any supporters of the official explanations, I don't think that anyone paid them off... or convinced them to tell lies... because that really would be ludicrous, and impossible to pull off, like Oto said. But you don't need that to make it work. You just need people to believe... and everything else will follow naturally.

The issues here are trust and loyalty. Even people that rely on expert scientists to 'debunk the conspiracies' fall into intellectual traps because there is no doubt that the science is good. However if it is based on false assumptions, the science is invalid. This goes back to a.) (What information is made publicly available). And if that fails, plan b.) does a pretty good job of silencing any other claims (look at the de-emphasis of Building 7, or evidence of Thermite residue). And if that fails make it look crazy... or better yet have people assume it's crazy through use of linguistic tools (Labeling, and the connotation of the word Conspiracy). All of this can be achieved without conducting a massive cover-up. It's not hard-- look at the massive amount of swine-flu misinformation spread around.

Now because I probably sound like a raving lunatic, I'm just gonna go ahead and say it.
(I foresee a shitstorm of emotional reactions to this... or the standard 'it's crazy' response.)
9/11 is exactly like what happened in 1933, Berlin, when the Reichstag (parliament) building was burned down.
The day after the fire, Hitler's dictatorship began with the enactment of a decree "for the Protection of the People and the State," thus military enlistment and expenditure skyrocketed, and all rights were taken away.

The same thing is happening in the US, coming from
a government that still believes in the death penalty,
a government that still believes war is justifiable,
a government that still subscribes to beliefs where the ends justify the means.
Don't think they wouldn't do it.

And if we can learn anything from history, we can at least say that regardless of fabrication theories,
9/11 has been used as a justification for war, control of oil, increased military expenditures, increased security measures, decreased civil liberties, increased reliance on the government, and an overall shift in power to the people in control.

But don't believe me.
Just consider why you believe what you believe.

[Otohiko]

I don't believe conspiracy theories because 99% of them are factually untrue. I'm also annoyed at them being constantly propagated in the left in this case, because like much of left-leaning politics these days, it's essentially a completely unproductive and time-consuming departure into details instead of concern over much more pressing macro-socioeconomic issues out there. I want people to stop wasting time on 99% fiction to get to 1% truth when there's other, more global 'truths' freely available to open minds, without layers of half-scientific bullshit over them.

Like a lot of things, least effort/last resort explains the vast majority of things. Doing something like this for the purpose of swaying public opinion is neither something that takes least effort nor is the last resort. There are much more powerful channels of soft power that exist on a more banal level. And while this did have a "desired" effect on public opinion, the same effect could be achieved with far, far less effort and much milder means than a coverup of this extent. In other words, if this WAS a conspiracy, it's one of the lamest conspiracies ever. I'd expect more from someone with as much money as "the man" in question. Don't underestimate the US military/industrial establishment - this is simply not their level of work. They can do much better and they do indeed do much better.

And again, I'm coming from far, far on the left with this.

[8bit_samurai]

So it was a politician petting a white cat? Is that what passes as Bond Villains these days? Whatever happen to the good old days with all the Jaw's and Xenia Onatopp's? I think I'll continue believing it was a guy half way around the world in a cave with unthinkable hatred for everything the US stands for

[godix]

So, basically, the theory here is that the same government that couldn't keep a secret when it came to the pentagon papers, a break in of a rivals office, selling weapons to Iran, a blowjob in the oval office, Abu Ghraib, rendition flights to foreign nations, or even just video footage from a military helicopter is capable of hiding that they're behind the mass murder of thousands on US soil? Riiiiiiiiight. The US government just isn't good enough at keeping secrets to have pulled this off. It's one of the governments more charming aspects actually.

I'd bother disproving the rest of your crap, except it's obvious something as minor as facts won't make you think about the shit you spew out, so why bother?

[Phantasmagoriat]

@ oto: I think I see what you are saying, yet when there are power relationships of the kind in question, I'm not sure any of that matters. I mean, if the government tried to persuade people to go to war, would it really work? Also, I certainly agree that there are much more pressing macro-socioeconomic matters, but if anything, at least this raises more awareness around the war in Iraq.

@ godix: There is a huge difference.
During 9/11 the world was in such an emotionally vulnerable state to see the facts clearly. People were also too respectful to ask questions that might cause controversy during such a sensitive time. The day I saw those towers come down, I had questions about whether that was actually possible, but I certainly kept my mouth shut, as could be expected. Everyone turned to the only place they thought they could trust, the government, which could also be expected. This is what makes the fabrication theory so much more likely than it sounds. Now if you say you have facts, I wouldn't mind hearing them, though I've looked through quite a bit already, and it seems like there is more evidence pointing towards the fabrication theory.

[Garylisk]

So, basically, the theory here is that the same government that couldn't keep a secret when it came to the pentagon papers, a break in of a rivals office, selling weapons to Iran, a blowjob in the oval office, Abu Ghraib, rendition flights to foreign nations, or even just video footage from a military helicopter is capable of hiding that they're behind the mass murder of thousands on US soil? Riiiiiiiiight. The US government just isn't good enough at keeping secrets to have pulled this off. It's one of the governments more charming aspects actually.

I'd bother disproving the rest of your crap, except it's obvious something as minor as facts won't make you think about the shit you spew out, so why bother?

I love how facts are minor.

Our owners want us to feel that way.

And yeah, the wealth is controlled by a few people, that is a fact, but they don't own me, and you don't have to be owned, so quite frankly, I don't buy into that anyway. You can argue it all you want, but lets say I do come up with a successful business and start making real money, and then some "owner" comes and buys me out. GOOD FOR ME I JUST MADE EVEN MORE MONEY. And it was their money. And given that I have the kind of drive and know-how to do that sort of thing, i could do it again. You call that being owned? I call it freedom.

[godix]

@ godix: There is a huge difference.
During 9/11 the world was in such an emotionally vulnerable state to see the facts clearly. People were also too respectful to ask questions that might cause controversy during such a sensitive time. The day I saw those towers come down, I had questions about whether that was actually possible, but I certainly kept my mouth shut, as could be expected. Everyone turned to the only place they thought they could trust, the government, which could also be expected. This is what makes the fabrication theory so much more likely than it sounds. Now if you say you have facts, I wouldn't mind hearing them, though I've looked through quite a bit already, and it seems like there is more evidence pointing towards the fabrication theory.

What you say was true for about a year or two. After that, things return to normal for America as we split between the Pro-Bush twits and Anti-Bush morons. Note that two of my earlier examples, abu ghraib and rendition flights, came out during this time period. So I still think the 9/11 conspiracy theories expect me to believe the same government that can't hide flying a guy to Egypt can somehow hide mass murdering thousands on US soil. Still smells like total bullshit to me.

Since you claim you actually want facts, I'll make a token effort here.

Turn to the pentagon incident--where is the plane?]

Mostly inside the Pentagon. Hell, just glance at the snopes page on this, it goes into far more detail than I care to bother typing.

The official story is that evidence was vaporized, including the two 6-ton steel/titanium-alloy engines.

Really? That's the official story is it? Perhaps you should try reading the official story someday...

However if it is based on false assumptions, the science is invalid.

It's not false assumptions or invalid science. It's fucking photographs of debris from the plane you seem to think doesn't exist.

look at the de-emphasis of Building 7, or evidence of Thermite residue

I've seen estimates that it would take approximately 18,000 lbs of thermite to produce the amount of melted metal seen on the WTC site. You honestly think someone was able to sneak in 18,000 lbs of anything into an office building that had lots of workers and so on? Really? Watching video of two planes hitting WTC (one of which was broadcast live worldwide) trips your bullshit sensor but thinking 18,000 lbs of thermite was snuck into the building and hidden doesn't sound at all strange to you?

As a side note, the melted metal is theorized to be aluminum for the two planes which were, largely, aluminum which has a lower melting point than many other metals.

9/11 is exactly like what happened in 1933, Berlin, when the Reichstag (parliament) building was burned down.
The day after the fire, Hitler's dictatorship began with the enactment of a decree "for the Protection of the People and the State," thus military enlistment and expenditure skyrocketed, and all rights were taken away.

Yes, an elected leader of America who's power was checked by Congress and the Supreme Court on multiple occasions until he passed on power peacefully to the next elected leader, who was from a different party than him, is exactly like a dictator who took control of a country, purged anyone who disagreed with him, and kept power until the day he died just as the world wide war he started was ending. Oh yeah, I can see the parallels there.

a government that still believes in the death penalty,
a government that still believes war is justifiable,

Neither of these have naything at all to do with 9/11. Not that it matters much, but sometimes a war is justifiable actually. I won't argue if Iraq or Afghan are justifiable wars, but some wars are. You indirectly mentioned one earlier, WWII was justifiable for many of the countries involved since they were, basically, fighting defensively after being attacked.

And if we can learn anything from history, we can at least say that regardless of fabrication theories,
9/11 has been used as a justification for war, control of oil, increased military expenditures, increased security measures, decreased civil liberties, increased reliance on the government, and an overall shift in power to the people in control.

[/quote]
Most of the oil contracts in Iraq post invasion went to non-American oil companies. If it was a war for oil, we would have made sure we actually got the oil...
Security, civil liberties, etc. are issues. But they aren't issues about 9/11. Reliance on the government and shift in power to 'people in control' has actually been occurring for decades now. At least since FDR if not since Lincoln.


By the way, something else mentioned in this thread earlier, controlled demolitions happen at the base of the building. Google for footage of controlled demolitions. All of them start with an explosion at the base of the building which causes the entire building to collapse at the same time as the base is destroyed. Now go look at the WTC footage of the collapsing towers. The collapse clearly started at the point the planes hit, not the base. The towers collapsing from the top down, where the bottom portion of the building was intact until the debris from above hit it. If this was a controlled demolition, it was one done entirely differently than any controlled demolition before or after it.

[Garylisk]

I've seen estimates that it would take approximately 18,000 lbs of thermite to produce the amount of melted metal seen on the WTC site. You honestly think someone was able to sneak in 18,000 lbs of anything into an office building that had lots of workers and so on? Really? Watching video of two planes hitting WTC (one of which was broadcast live worldwide) trips your bullshit sensor but thinking 18,000 lbs of thermite was snuck into the building and hidden doesn't sound at all strange to you?

I was lying in bed thinking, and that thought came to my mind! You beat me to it! If people had been sneaking explosives in, don't you think it would have been noticed? And how far in advance would they have placed them? If it was too long before 9/11, surely the explosives would have been found just by some idiot trying to sneak away for a cigarette where his boss won't find him.

[Zarxrax]

I used to think that the 9/11 conspiracy theories were complete garbage. I spent quite a while arguing with someone about it on a forum. He made really crappy arguments, and i debunked his arguments. But... over the course of the several weeks I was arguing with him, while researching it myself to counter his claims, I came across lots of better arguments than the ones he was presenting to me. Despite my searches for the truth, I couldn't completely discount some of the things that I had read. I now think there is a very strong possibility that 9/11 was orchestrated by our own government. I'm not going to say for sure that bombs brought those buildings down. I'm still not convinced. Maybe the planes did bring them down. But I am convinced that the government most likely had full knowledge of exactly what was going to happen.

A great documentary to watch is terrorstorm. It shows examples of how governments have conducted terrorism against their own people throughout history. It completely obliterates the argument that "our government would never do this to its own people".

Once you come to grips with the fact that your government owns you, world news suddenly becomes a lot more interesting.