Take more action in the MEP forums

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Kionon
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Post by Kionon » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:18 am

The moderation on the org is substantially faster and wider than many online forums I have visited. Mods are fairly quick to take action and can be easily contacted via modbox, IRC, or PM if an actual situation does get out of hand. Every community that is dynamic and living requires a certain amount of dissidence to be allowed free reign, even if it isn't overtly democratic. After all, this isn't a state, it's an online forum where people can vote via participation. When moderation becomes excessive, people will just leave. It isn't the Iron Curtain, where people are not allowed to leave.

tl;dr, moderation is fine on the org the way it is
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Otohiko
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Post by Otohiko » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:24 am

I took rather harsh action at one point, and people bitched. While I'm currently inclined to maintain rules, I personally tread carefully on the MEP forums. Once I have time, I may try to clean them up again.

Please keep in mind that mods are human. More than that, mods do a lot of work for absolutely free. How would you feel if you were trying to keep a forum community clean and friendly towards all in equal measure, and all you got in return was people calling you a nazi? And what would that do to your motivation to put in time and effort into it?


I will ask nicely - and you know who you people are - please stop the spam and flaming. You have no right to do this under the forum rules and you have a responsibility to NOT do this out of consideration for the community. Likewise, it is NOT the mods' responsibility to clean up after the regulars constantly. People who spend years on the .org continuing this manner on behaviour may eventually not be welcome here.
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Kionon
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Post by Kionon » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:39 am

I mention the Iron Curtain and Oto shows up. :up:
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godix
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Post by godix » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:57 pm

I've said before, I used to think the org was overly restrictive back in the no OT days. These days, it seems overly permissive. When I'm one of the more sane and rational people around then there's a problem, although admittedly I have become less dickish as my concern for org dramas has dropped. I don't think you guys quite have the problem nailed down here though. The problem isn't some people being assholes, but rather people treating every thread on the org as their personal playground. Sometimes a thread should be welcoming and inclusive to noobs instead of clique like injokes, certainly a thread started by a noob to promote their video or organize a project should be.

On the other hand, I admire (most) mods because I would not do what they do. They do it because they like the community. In general, all they get back is whining. Mod too harshly and there's threads bitching about it. Mod too lightly and there's threads bitching about it. Step up and try to lead the community somehow and people bitch about it. Sit back and let the community evolve on it's own and people bitch about it. Code new features and the community whines that it's only for donators, or that it's too much like another site, or that it wasn't done right, or a list of other things users thing need coded. And god forbid a mod/admin have a sense of humor; for example, I recall excessive dramas when one user got their name changed as a joke (it wasn't me, I know my name changes were harmless jokes). If I were a mod/admin, I would have told all of you to go fuck yourself quite awhile ago. Thinking about it, a fair number of mods/admins have told the community to go fuck itself, they just were too subtle in how they said it for many to notice.
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Vivaldi
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Post by Vivaldi » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:21 pm

The thing that's disturbing me is that it's gotten to the point where the question isn't "Was a rule broken" or "was this justifiable within the context of the situation" and into "Should we even bother to enforce these rules?" At that point I think we have a problem.

That's not to say the mods are not efficient, when contacted about situations they respond very promtly and god knows how much work they do behind the scenes, but even so: "Thou shalt be courteous at all times" is a rule that's almost never enforced. It's natural to allow a large amount of wiggle room for rules like that, but we're up to our necks in some people's bile. I don't see why people with year spanning track-records of spitting in the face of the rules and laughing are allowed any kind of leniency. Bans notwithstanding, their posts aren't even moderated unless someone files a request.

If someone gets banned or moderated, yes, they're going to bitch and say stupid things: isn't that their problem? If anything, isn't that reason for harsher punishment? I'm not advocating orgwide bans or strict-liability on the rules, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. As it is it takes a truly massive disregard of the rules to even get a warning.


The mods get a lot of shit, and I admire them for how much the put up with. But the argument of "people will yell at us so we won't do anything" seems counter-intuitive to the purpose in the first place. Then again, a series of troll topics just got locked, so maybe it's all moot.
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Post by Otohiko » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:39 pm

Vivaldi wrote: The mods get a lot of shit, and I admire them for how much the put up with. But the argument of "people will yell at us so we won't do anything" seems counter-intuitive to the purpose in the first place. Then again, a series of troll topics just got locked, so maybe it's all moot.
Mind you, I'm not saying that nothing should be done either. Just that in many cases it's a bit of a lose-lose situation and taking a hard line on every single rule and situation can only result in more problems than started it in the first place. In some cases, for example, it's true that spam and especially trolling dies out by itself if people (including of course the mods) don't react to it. Then there's also times where dealing with everything and tearing into every post that is potentially against rules is just inefficient.

But that doesn't mean we won't do it when it's really necessary.
The Birds are using humanity in order to throw something terrifying at this green pig. And then what happens to us all later, that’s simply not important to them…

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Kionon
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Post by Kionon » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:35 pm

There also has to be a legitimate space for trolling, in-jokes, etc. I have participated in such, I have posted meme images, I'm fond of tossing kyon-kun, denwa around. I have never been banned, I have never been warned. This is because I do it in moderation. As I said earlier, every community needs to allow a certain amount of this, and I think the org team does an excellent job walking the line. Off-topicness and bitching are inherent to the concept of human community. As I said, be too excessive about preventing that, and people just leave.
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Post by BaQuM » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:44 pm

I am posting here, because I indeed had participated in such mean, disrespectful, elitist activity. I apologize for that. But I got what I deserved, I was banned from the .org for a week, at first it was very hard to deal with but then I tried going on with my life, as if nothing has changed. After a lot of sleepless nights I realized that I could not go on like that. "Trolling" might be fun at first, but is it really worth it? No, I don't think it is.

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Vivaldi
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Post by Vivaldi » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:14 pm

Kionon wrote: I have never been banned, I have never been warned. This is because I do it in moderation.
And many people don't. Many people do whatever the hell they want and go unchallenged. You sound like you want a de-facto 4chan with no mods whatsoever. We can't stifle, we need wiggle room, but at the same time people will not moderate themselves.


Why can't people stop talking in extremes, nobody's asking for a totalitarian crackdown, we just want something...anything.


Why can't it just be something like "After the 50th offense and upon viewing the posters general demeanor and offense history"?
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Re: Take more action in the MEP forums

Post by Bauzi » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:47 pm

I know you do it in your free time without geting payed and I'm aware that it gets annoying... oh and I don't want to be a mod in this forum too, but: It's somehow your job. I understand you if it discourages you, but: It's your duty. If you don't do something because you fear that people will blame you than you do something wrong. Just saying. I don't want to say that you feel or do this way.

and seriously... it gets disturbing when Godix is one of the more polite people here. Man... I sometimes really disliked you because I thought you were such a bad model for other users and their behavior, but today... :|
In some cases, for example, it's true that spam and especially trolling dies out by itself if people (including of course the mods) don't react to it. Then there's also times where dealing with everything and tearing into every post that is potentially against rules is just inefficient.
I'm the opinion (I can't tell how much you do now): Draw a line (I know that it will be more subjective in that case), react on people who overdo it. Show them that they steped over the line. Edit posts, delete posts in hard cases, give out warnings, give temp bans, give perma-bans. Just show that not everything is alright what they do.
As I said, be too excessive about preventing that, and people just leave.
On the other hand: Take no action and new people will leave or hardly stay. I think you can have fun with meme pics and stuff. Look at the General AMV forum. There is a lot of fun (minor) spam and hardly anybody cares and it hardly goes out of hand. That's fun too and no one gets insulted. Just harmless joking around.
We can't stifle, we need wiggle room, but at the same time people will not moderate themselves.
I believe that a lot of people can if they get shown that what they do is not alright and that they often really hurt people and often piss them of big times.

For example: If I would have known that Code was already that much pissed with Project Editor II trashtalk. I would have never ripped his final nerves with continueing the spam in the Project Gateway thread. What was meant as a small silly fun on my side seriously made him explode and made him start phase 1 of the end of Project Editor. and I'm very sorry for it.
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