I think we need a "no star/comment at this time" rating

[Nya-chan Production]

Offer some instead of pointless whining, then? |:

[Corran]

However, I have yet to talk to anyone who actually sits down and thinks, "Now what star rating should I give this, gotta be fair..." No. Those people write opinions or comment on the announcement thread.

Raises hand. I haven't left an opinion since March 2004 and I rarely post in AMV Announcement these days. I know I would not give star ratings if I didn't have to (except on rare occasion) just as I don't currently give quick comments. However, because I have to rate them doesn't mean I'm going to rate blindly.

For me it goes like this:

1 = I hated it
2 = Didn't like it
3 = Neutral
4 = Liked it
5 = Loved it

It is not hard for me to pick one of those. I don't have to sit down and think about it carefully or try not to offend the creator. I just go with my gut feeling.

I think most people rate similarly otherwise the all time star scale would not have the same ranking. The videos at the top of this list are videos I would expect to win in audience vote contests. Whether or not a "seasoned amv critic" would agree with the list is beside the point. The star system is not about e-penis bullshit. It is about finding videos that would normally go overlooked.

If the star scale system was absolute crap, the personalized suggestion query tool would not generate useful results. However, because I rate how I feel, my results (particularly when using method 2) tend to be fairly good.

Convincing Phade to let me make the change you want would happen when hell freezes over. I've argued with him about changing less important details of the system to no avail. Even if he had no problem with it, there is no way I'm going to. Making the streaming system opt-in/out was a major PITA in itself.

So my advice is, quit treating star ratings like they should be some kind of absolute indicator to the quality of a video, and keep giving your 3's if you can't be bothered to take one second to rate with your gut feeling.

Fine. I'm a donator. And, I personally don't even use local space. Give donators a no comment button. We're the one's paying for the service!

I'm not getting paid so...

[16:25] <OropherZ|SO4> + i cbf streaming any vids of star ratings
[16:25] <OropherZ|SO4> not to mention you end up duplicating star ratings for streamed vids

In case you are reading this thread... You don't end up duplicating star ratings. I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion...
If you've previously rated a video and then watch it via streaming, the rating dialog will not appear on the streaming page. If you:
1) start watching a video via streaming
2) open the members main page after 30 seconds in another window
3) rate the video in one of the windows
4) and then rate it again in the other window
then you will actually get an error stating the video has already been rated and that if you want to change it you should go to the Local Downloads page.

[Kionon]

Raises hand. I haven't left an opinion since March 2004 and I rarely post in AMV Announcement these days. I know I would not give star ratings if I didn't have to (except on rare occasion) just as I don't currently give quick comments. However, because I have to rate them doesn't mean I'm going to rate blindly.

Okay. So one.

It is not hard for me to pick one of those. I don't have to sit down and think about it carefully or try not to offend the creator. I just go with my gut feeling.

Okay, so not one. I didn't say it was hard. I said it was silly.

I think most people rate similarly otherwise the all time star scale would not have the same ranking. The videos at the top of this list are videos I would expect to win in audience vote contests. Whether or not a "seasoned amv critic" would agree with the list is beside the point. The star system is not about e-penis bullshit. It is about finding videos that would normally go overlooked.

This has not been my experience. I also have no idea what would win in audience vote contests, and on a totally personal note, I do not care. With the exception of certain individuals, such as quadir, I am not remotely interested in feedback from non-editors. If I as, I would not be on the Org. And If I have nothing worth saying from an editor's point of view, then I usually say nothing at all. And, yet, if I DO feel compelled to leave an amusing little ditty of a response, I do so in the announcement forum, where it is part and parcel of the community code.

If the star scale system was absolute crap, the personalized suggestion query tool would not generate useful results. However, because I rate how I feel, my results (particularly when using method 2) tend to be fairly good.

Every highly rated AMV, with the exception of anything done by Koop, that I have seen come up has been something I do not want to watch. So I am not sure how you argue the system generates useful results or isn't total crap. My experience has been the opposite. If I want to know what the good amvs are, I just have to ask. I rarely ever use search function at all, and mostly only get new videos via the announcement forum or because of contests because I cannot trust star ratings as they now stand.

Convincing Phade to let me make the change you want would happen when hell freezes over. I've argued with him about changing less important details of the system to no avail. Even if he had no problem with it, there is no way I'm going to. Making the streaming system opt-in/out was a major PITA in itself.

This doesn't surprise me. I'm pretty upset with him, actually. Either he runs the site or he doesn't. He's never around, but he seems to hog tie you guys in a number of ways. Not to mention I am only part of this community as much as I am because I promised him, personally, years ago I would, and then he skipped out. I honestly believe he has forgotten that entirely. I know he's busy, and I know he has a life, but I still think it's pretty low to keep involving yourself in something you have shown yourself to no longer be interested in.

As for you not doing it, fine. It was just a suggestion. One I hold very dear because I really do believe that it is not in sync with freedom of expression of criticism, something this community prides itself in. I'd ask if you could do a zero stars button, but I figure that too would be the same as a no comment button. If all this is a simple logistical point "the system won't allow it, I can't program that" then it's fine. Just say so. I understand technical limitations, and I have no real knowledge of programming, so if you say a null result can't be integrated, or can't be without great difficulty, then I get that. I will take your word for it. I will not consider it a matter of disagreement, but rather a practical obstacle. I would be a douchebag for holding against you what you cannot reasonably do.

So my advice is, quit treating star ratings like they should be some kind of absolute indicator to the quality of a video, and keep giving your 3's if you can't be bothered to take one second to rate with your gut feeling.

Actually, I think they're no indicator whatsoever of the quality of a video. And, I can be bothered. I call that an announcement thread post or an opinion. I give threes because I think the system is ridiculous. Since it is ridiculous, it is only fair to give everyone the same neutral star rating. Everyone. Because I do care about being fair.

I'm not getting paid so...

...Totally not the point.

[CodeZTM]

Wow. I never ever thought these words would ever leave my mouth. O_o I agree with Kionon.

I dunno. It's not that I'm going to file a federal case over it to the mods and admins, but it really is quite irritating. I understand that the search engine uses it as a search function and that it's a good way in theory to grade AMV's, yet it doesn't work in practice. Usually, I download my limited 10 AMV's, then go through and pick out the ones I REALLY liked and give them fives. The others I give three and move on with my life. It's a flawed system (everyone knows that...). I'd love to suggest that it be a donator-only choice to use star ratings, but that would probably take a TON of work on the part of the mods/admins/coders. Work that would better be applied elsewhere. All other arguments have been made regarding my beliefs and probably more eloquently than I can put it.

But then again, I think the star rating system is good for appearances. As it is, this hobby is horribly illegal. Most anime and music companies don't mind (note the qualifying statement MOST)because it looks like we're an editing community. Star ratings taht prevent us from downloading past 10 AMV's at once can slightly bring the illusion that people aren't downloading AMv's to watch Anime. Plus, as an Opera user, I'm able to download as many AMV's as I want simultaniously (I still have no clue how this works with Opera, as none of my other browsers do it). The 10 limit probably is a means of saving Bandwidth/Server Load.

I dunno. I've always had to deal with and I've never loved it. But I'm pretty sure we're just going to have to deal with it.

[hasteroth]

Hmmm.... Words I never thought would leave my mouth... well they didn't anyways.... I typed them

I agree with Code.

[8bit_samurai]

Now, I realise there may be logistical reasons for limiting downloads, but in that case, why not just give me a button that says "no comment?" I'd rather click that ten times on my page than give everyone threes just to get it out of the way.

Instead of complicating things and adding another button, why don't you (continue to) use this?

1 = Does not exist
2 = Does not exist
3 = No comment
4 = Liked it
5 = Loved it

And not leave a comment? It's basically the same thing

For the most part I don't really mind having to go through each video and rate them individually, unless I dled a batch of videos that didn't really meet my expectations. But hey, at least I didn't have to wait 5 minutes for a download link and at least the Org is dTa friendly. I mean, you could probably suggest a rate all option like how it has a submit all button. Sure, it is another button, but at least you wouldn't have to click it ten times.

Every highly rated AMV, with the exception of anything done by Koop, that I have seen come up has been something I do not want to watch. So I am not sure how you argue the system generates useful results or isn't total crap. My experience has been the opposite. If I want to know what the good amvs are, I just have to ask. I rarely ever use search function at all, and mostly only get new videos via the announcement forum or because of contests because I cannot trust star ratings as they now stand.

It may not work for you, but it works good enough for me, though it may be because my expectations are different, if not lower (or both). I do search every now and then, and when I do I usually order it by stars if it's more than three pages. Most of the time it's not, but that's probably because of the source (songs, mostly nowadays) I'm searching for. The video results may not turn out how I expected, but still having results usually amuses me.

[Kionon]

Instead of complicating things and adding another button, why don't you (continue to) use this?

Are we certain everyone accepts 3 as being devoid of commentary? I don't want the editor to think I gave them a 3/5 when I actually gave them an N/A.

Your idea for a submit all button is intriguing but doesn't solve the above issue. Three out of five a score, if I feel that I don't to give a video any score at all what am I supposed to do? Choose a three and then take the time for every video I don't want to score to leave a QC that says "3 = No Comment"? Would the editor even understand the message?

[godix]

I actually agree with kio although he does seem to have a rather huge bug up his ass about it. It isn't worth nearly the argument value he's putting into it. Especially considering the guy who would code the change just said no. The star rating is, at best, trivial and unimportant. At times it's a major pain in the ass. As an example, if you want to download all the VCA videos then every 10 downloads you gotta stop, give totally bullshit stars to videos you haven't watched yet, then continue on. Since there's a couple hundred videos in the VCA that means you'll have to interrupt downloading about 20 times to do this. That's a kinda specialized case I know, but it serves as an example of how the current system is really annoying when you're doing a mass download spree for some reason or another.

Where Kio actually has a much stronger point I agree with is Phade. The history of the org, from an outsiders perspective, is that of a disfunctional family. Phade was the orgs papa and everyone loved him. He was good, kind, and all the other things idealized fathers are. But one day he died and the remaining admins had to soldier on without him. Then AD became the rebound stepfather, he tried to do it but in the end he couldn't deal with it. So one day he just walked out the door without telling anyone and no one ever saw him again. For the next few years everyone tried to pretend daddy was still around and before anything got done they'd go 'What would dear old papa do?' and so on. However there comes a point where you have to accept the guy is gone. He is dead to the org. Move on with your life. Earlier this year it appeared like Jasper, Corran, and Doki had finally accepted the loss and started moving on. We got new features, more public interaction with the admins, and in general a feeling that the org was finally moving out from under the Phade's shadow. Don't step back in a moment of weakness. Phade is gone. Grieve and accept the loss and move on with life. There are new exciting opportunities in the orgs life, but we can't experience them if we're still mourning for a guy who's been gone for seven or eight years now. Don't end up that bitter 80 year old woman who never got over her husbands death when she was 35.

From actually talking to admins and mods, I know reality is more complicated than what I just wrote. Phade's still there in the background. But come on, the vast majority of the orgs userbase at this point doesn't even remember a time when Phade was the active head admin. For example, I did not become active on the org until the AD era, and I've been around long enough I'm probably considered one of the old fucks of the org. Offhand I don't think Scintilla, niotex, jaddzia, otohiko, or a whole lot of other names well known and considered the oldsters among the org these days. We've gone through at least one generation of users since then, perhaps two. The users view him the same way we view George Washington, yeah he started everything and he was good and all that, but it was all in the past and things have changed. Phade said he didn't want to run the org anymore, and no blame to him for that. Real life is more important than a web forum. But still, if he decided to not run the org anymore then isn't it years past the point where everyone quit running to him to get permission to do shit? Fuck it, either he's head admin or not. The current admins themselves say he is not, his name isn't listed here. His opinion should have no more weight these days than mine or anyone else's does.

[Corran]

Either he runs the site or he doesn't. He's never around, but he seems to hog tie you guys in a number of ways.

If it deals with functionality he's designed I generally contact him before changing it. He's never explicitly required me to do this and I'm not sure how often the other programmers do. I do it primarily out of courtesy. He has done a lot for the org over the years, continues to handle finances, and is the legal point of contact, so I have a great deal of respect for him. I probably could have made the change I was talking about without him noticing, and he probably wouldn't have cared enough to revert my changes. However, if I can not change his mind on something after an honest debate, I will not override him and do it anyways.

If all this is a simple logistical point "the system won't allow it, I can't program that" then it's fine. Just say so. I understand technical limitations, and I have no real knowledge of programming, so if you say a null result can't be integrated, or can't be without great difficulty, then I get that.

Logistics are a major issue. Related database queries, the three different implementations of the rating interface, and the code that validates and updates star ratings would need to be changed. From here it gets tricky. The existing star related code spread throughout the site may or may not need updating. The only way to know for sure is thorough testing.

So it is more like "the system might allow it, I can program that, but the cost/benefit ratio does not appeal to me so I'm not going to program that even if Phade was cool with it."

I'm not getting paid so...

...Totally not the point.

Maybe not your point in your reply specifically to Zarxrax, but my point is that the programmers will program what we choose to and that we are under no obligation to program X feature. This entire thread I've felt like you've approached the issue like "The system is stupid, change it, now." and "I'm right, you're wrong."
Otohiko gave a response that I completely agree with, in which he compared star ratings to a weather vane rather than some kind of precision instrument, but you dismiss it with "Does it? Does it, really? I think not." and then go on about how the system causes inaccurate ratings despite that being an inherently implied side effect in Otohiko's post.

I try posting to let you know that there are people that give star ratings as intended because the system is compulsory and you dismiss my point simply based on loosely related word choice.

It is frustrating and makes me and others less likely to help you.

Are we certain everyone accepts 3 as being devoid of commentary? I don't want the editor to think I gave them a 3/5 when I actually gave them an N/A.

How the editor interprets the number will vary from person to person. I personally recommend using a 3 because I view 3 as being indifferent.

As an example, if you want to download all the VCA videos then every 10 downloads you gotta stop, give totally bullshit stars to videos you haven't watched yet, then continue on. Since there's a couple hundred videos in the VCA that means you'll have to interrupt downloading about 20 times to do this.

In future VCAs, non-donators will have streaming access to the semi-finalists. In this case, they could rate the videos as they watch them.

[mirkosp]

As an example, if you want to download all the VCA videos then every 10 downloads you gotta stop, give totally bullshit stars to videos you haven't watched yet, then continue on. Since there's a couple hundred videos in the VCA that means you'll have to interrupt downloading about 20 times to do this.

In future VCAs, non-donators will have streaming access to the semi-finalists. In this case, they could rate the videos as they watch them.

Streaming queue? Now this sounds like a plan.