That #AMV-Review Discussion Again

[JaddziaDax]

tl;dr

Thank you for the informative post on how challenging it is to read mere paragraphs.

Actually its the arrogant way kionon phrases things that makes it annoying to read more so than the amount of paragraphs.

He could sum up the issues he is having over his timezone and his unwillingness to give up his position of grand chairman of the bashing club in a few words/sentences instead of droning on like a professor that is in love with the sound of his own voice. (or a writer that doesn't know when to quit...)

Which is why I decided to go for the shortest response I could think of.... but does my longer explanation satisfy your what ever it is that needs to be satisfied?

[Kionon]

I didn't mind the videos persay ... I did mind the rules.

A perfect example of the internal debate I mentioned earlier. I've now had both responses here, as well as PMs talking about the need for more structure, more rules... and here comes along FC (and he isn't alone) who says the rules are the problem...

I didn't like being restricted on what I could and couldn't talk about.
I didn't like the fact that the videos had to be made within the last year, or whatever other guidelines were put on that.

I think the issue is varying degrees of what constitutes valuable criticism. You and I are both two of the harshest critics, of ourselves, of each other, and of others in general. It seems, however, that there is a group who thinks we have gone too far. My own opinions are close to yours, but as a leader, I see the need to reevaluate, compromise, and to eventually make concessions based on the general consensus among the -review participants.

I do remember a large majority of drama/romance/sentimental videos getting picked ...

This would be where a more diverse selection committee is absolutely necessary. When three out of five review team members all have similar tastes, they're going to outvote the other two every single time. When the only person selecting a video is a drama/romance/sentimental editor, well... You can see the result. I agree we chose that genre too many times, but that would be another problem solved by a new selection committee.

On a side note (although I must admit I was able to participate much more during the beginning) I'm not sure where this idea that we "Take popular videos and hate on them" I seem to remember having very positive comments for a few videos both popular and not, as well as heaping criticism on non popular videos. I suppose it's just that when we did it to the popular ones they got far more attention.

Again, as above, I think this comes from differing opinions of what constitutes valuable criticism. For the record, there is nothing that I have said I would take back. I think that the team members and the participants that garnered that reputation were all individuals of a particular school of criticism. And although I have no scientific basis for this, seem to be older, more established, or fairly well-known editors. People who remember being criticised quite harshly in the past, and coming through it as a better editors. The community has never been an overly friendly place. This was true in the late nineties before the org, and I know in the beginning, that I certainly had my share of harsh criticism. As I have mentioned elsewhere, ErMaC once completely destroyed a video of mine, in public, at AWA some years ago, when I first started out. I doubt he even remembers it, but I do, and I remember what he said. And you can be damn sure I never made those same mistakes again. I think perhaps there's a more liberal school of criticism that has developed, and what we're seeing is a clash between the two. In the future, I plan to be much more of a referee between the two schools so that we don't have extremes on either side.

[I can't as of yet comment on the time issue.

That's fine, but when you can, please do.

[Kionon]

Actually its the arrogant way kionon phrases things that makes it annoying to read more so than the amount of paragraphs.

I always talk/write like this. There just isn't more to say about this.

He could sum up the issues he is having over his timezone and his unwillingness to give up his position of grand chairman of the bashing club in a few words/sentences instead of droning on like a professor that is in love with the sound of his own voice. (or a writer that doesn't know when to quit...)

This is wrong.

I am willing to give up my position to someone who can, and will, take the responsibility to run -review on a consistent basis. Are you volunteering?

And -review is not a bashing club. It's a place to discuss AMVs.

If you hate -review that much, why not just say, "Well, I think -review needs to be shut down" and leave it at that?[/quote]

[CodeZTM]

I didn't give a time because I don't know if I'm getting the job I applied for until June 9, and I'm currently unsure of my work schedule.

As for videos I want reviewed? Prolly just nicely ask two people that have released something in AMV Announcements Forum and go that route.

[Niotex]

It's more or less the selection of videos that seems to disturb me. Also, I don't like the whole "oh look, people liked it, let's rape it up the bum".

If people selected "indi" video's I'd rip them to shreds regardless. Some statements I've also seen of "circle jerking" and such can also be put to rest. As I'll gladly tear into my friends and fellow reviewer video's. As do I encourage people to rip my shit to shreds, so I can see where my screw ups are located. As in the end thats what these things are about. Shred and show the editor in question the coroners report. So that he might learn from his/her mistakes and improve on those.

It might be a smart idea to ask for the consent of the editor before doing a review though. That way most of the drama can be spared.

[JaddziaDax]

Actually its the arrogant way kionon phrases things that makes it annoying to read more so than the amount of paragraphs.

I always talk/write like this. There just isn't more to say about this.

that doesn't make it less annoying.

He could sum up the issues he is having over his timezone and his unwillingness to give up his position of grand chairman of the bashing club in a few words/sentences instead of droning on like a professor that is in love with the sound of his own voice. (or a writer that doesn't know when to quit...)

This is wrong.

I am willing to give up my position to someone who can, and will, take the responsibility to run -review on a consistent basis. Are you volunteering?

Obviously (as you say) I hate review why would I want to take up running it?

I got about half way through your droning and gave up so I don't know what happened in the second half of your post... see my first response, in this post, for reasons why. If you kept your sentences to the point instead of going on tangents, it would be easier to digest your information.

And -review is not a bashing club. It's a place to discuss AMVs.

If in the future I read more discussion and less "only idiots will vote for such a video" (which I've read repeated times in several of your so called "discussions") then perhaps I'll agree to that statement.

If you hate -review that much, why not just say, "Well, I think -review needs to be shut down" and leave it at that?

I never said I hated review, I actually like the idea of review, but I also still think that people should volunteer for it.. (at the very least for the opinion part of it) I like the idea of review I just don't like how you guys go about doing things.

For the record I am not against ripping videos apart, its just when several people come in and rip a video apart and do NOTHING BUT rip a video apart all at the same time it comes off as bullying rather than an actual review. That's the main reason I think people should have the choice to say "no i don't need you guys being assholes to me today."

[Yok/0]

It's more or less the selection of videos that seems to disturb me. Also, I don't like the whole "oh look, people liked it, let's rape it up the bum".

Hate to sound like i'm twisting words here but it sounds like it's ok for -review to rape the nobody's asshole, it's the cool kids or the video that everyone liked (however you want to word it) is when the drama comes in...Drama might be gay but so is circle jerking.

[LivingFlame]

It's true that pointing out the weaknesses in a video will help the editor know what they need to work on (assuming they're smart enough for that), but if all that gets mentioned in the review are the faults, then that's all the editor now knows - the faults. Also let them know A) how to do things better next time 'round, and B) what was well done this time 'round.

Constructive criticism about a video is one thing; simply tearing down a video for the sake of tearing it down is another.

Surely not everyone in review is so jaded and/or cynical (or just so mean-spirited) that not one person can find something good in a given video. I know videos that are pure, unadulterated garbage aren't picked for -review; I've read a number of them.

Maybe it's just me, but I think a review should actually give me an idea of what's good and bad in a video, unless the video just sways really heavily to one side of that fence or the other. Why should I watch/not watch a video? What are the strong points and the weak points?

Thinking about movie reviews, reviewers won't just sit down and rant solely on how horrible a movie is (with the possible exceptions of gems like Catwoman that are just....yeah). They will point out what's good and bad about a movie, otherwise it just comes off as completely biased.

Basically, I share the sentiments of those that think the recent reviews have felt less like reviews and more like lynchings.

~~~

All that said, I've never attended a review, but I've been interested in at least sitting-in during one of them, just to see how it works (and I've never been in an IRC channel, so it's something different >_>).

Dunno how welcome I would actually be as a reviewer, though, seeing as how I have nothing uploaded to this site (or any site, for that matter). If you care about times from someone who hasn't been to -review, then I'll consider my schedule later.

Meanwhile, I'll probably get flamed or something now. Meh. =\

[CodeZTM]

It's more or less the selection of videos that seems to disturb me. Also, I don't like the whole "oh look, people liked it, let's rape it up the bum".

Hate to sound like i'm twisting words here but it sounds like it's ok for -review to rape the nobody's asshole, it's the cool kids or the video that everyone liked (however you want to word it) is when the drama comes in...Drama might be gay but so is circle jerking.

Hmm.. I does kind of look like I was saying that.

What I was attempting to say is that most of the time, videos that a large audience like usually gets much more rapeage than videos that aren't popular. I'm not saying its ok for non-popular videos, I'm just making an observation.

And I'm also not saying that it's bad to rip videos (like whad Jaddziadax said), I'm just saying 9 times out of ten, the reviews are pure rippage rather than constructive critisism.

[Kionon]

that doesn't make it less annoying.

And that doesn't make it any more likely to change. I'm sorry you find my word choices annoying, but I am not about to alter twenty years of sentence construction because you aren't comfortable with it. I like you a lot, Old Man, I've said it before, and this disagreement doesn't change that fact, but I don't you that much, hell, I don't like anyone that much, not even my best friend.

Obviously (as you say) I hate review why would I want to take up running it?

You say below you disagree not with the idea, but how things are being done. If that's true, why don't you actually invest time and effort into changing how things are done? I'd be more than happy to work with you to incorporate your ideas, or if you are serious about wholesale change, hand the reigns over to you. However, it seems clear to me that you are not interested in actually expending effort to make a difference, you are only interested in saying how put off you are by my speech patterns.

I got about half way through your droning and gave up so I don't know what happened in the second half of your post... see my first response, in this post, for reasons why. If you kept your sentences to the point instead of going on tangents, it would be easier to digest your information.

Maybe it would be. I don't know. What I do know is that I am very careful to choose words that as closely resemble what I wish to say as possible. Words matter. You may call it droning, but I call it accurate expression. When I say something, it's because I want to say that. I don't want to shorten, I don't want to write subject verb object period sentences to get across my meaning. We're all capable English speakers here, even the non-native speakers are capable speakers. There is no reason to limit ourselves to "See Jane run. Run, Jane, run." And while I'm sympathetic to your need for convenience, I'm afraid I have zero interest in indulging it.

If in the future I read more discussion and less "only idiots will vote for such a video" (which I've read repeated times in several of your so called "discussions") then perhaps I'll agree to that statement.

You accuse me of arrogance, and of attempting to build a petty fiefdom, and then use intentionally antagonizing language. I have, now, repeatedly, admitted that the consensus seems to be that the negativity went to extremes. While this is not my view, nor the view of a few others, I have taken the blame for allowing this, and have pledged to bring more decorum to -review. You know how you can see that happen faster? By helping us do it!

I never said I hated review, I actually like the idea of review, but I also still think that people should volunteer for it.. (at the very least for the opinion part of it) I like the idea of review I just don't like how you guys go about doing things.

Then make a pledge to change things, and deliver on your pledge. I have reasons why I believe solicitations for -review are a mistake. If the majority disagrees with me, I need to hear that. Furthermore, I need a selection committee that will represent that view, and disagree with or override me in cases where I feel the consensus opinion is incorrect. This isn't a fiefdom, what it should be is a temporary oligarchy with some vestiges of a representative republic. But if no one will run for the committee, then it'll just be me, with a few other regulars, that control everything. Not by choice, but by necessity.

For the record I am not against ripping videos apart, its just when several people come in and rip a video apart and do NOTHING BUT rip a video apart all at the same time it comes off as bullying rather than an actual review. That's the main reason I think people should have the choice to say "no i don't need you guys being assholes to me today."

I simply disagree with your interpretation of events. There have been team members who have been quite harsh, but at the end of the day, those are the same members that would be harsh regardless of whether there was a -review or not. I am not naming names, but I think we can all read between the lines. However, I strongly disagree that any of the video reviews were nothing but negative. This is simply factually incorrect. It's wrong. False. We can debate what ratio there was, but no single review was ever 100% negative. Furthermore, I remind you that Countdown was reviewed, in my virtual absence, and there was plenty of negativity directed towards me. I am not asking any reviewee to submit to that which I myself have not submitted to.

Once again, I urge you, if you are really interested in seeing changes, to volunteer either to participate in, plan, or coordinate future review sessions. You would also be welcome in a committee spot, if you were interested in pursuing such.