What rights does the viewer have?

[Decoy]

The way i see it is anime viewers have the right to believe what they want, so long as they dont force it on other people (kinda like religion, lol). Anime to me is about the experience and how you interperate it, i for one am quite uptight about secondary characters, and quite easily get angry when something i dislike happens to the character, and often i react worse to secondary characters losing plot focus than i do when primary characters do. I also belive trigun was unfinished, the end just came in one episode, and the ending credits were, well, pretty uninsipring. An anime i felt was truly finished was scryed, they handeled it perfectly from start to finish, leaving you with just enough information to keep you satisfied, and the final scene at the end of the credits endid nicely.

One big issue i have at the moment currently revolves around onegai teacher, which was personally ruined for me by secondary characters.

http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/v ... 84&start=0

In that post there is a point i made on something i was sort of uncertain about, now im pretty sure on it, and am willing to argue my point, but not to the stage where i accuse someone of being blatently wrong. That was the way i saw the anime, and thats what i believe, and i get pretty uptight when people assure me that their oppinion on it is 100% right and that im wrong, because i like to think that the experience was mine, and how i saw it is mine and my own business.

Anyway, im just talking crap now

[derek_t]

Ok I meant to click on post reply and instead clicked on post new thread, sorry!!!!

Anyway I've been too long winded, thats it.

The only thing I will say is that saying "the show felt incomplete" is indeed an opinion.

[samurairyu]

I was told that because I watched an anime I didn't have the right to reject the message. Question: Why not?

If I felt Trigun was incomplete, why can't I say "I felt it was incomplete". Why must I agree that where Trigun ended must be the true ending

If I feel Eva had Shinji and company goes through incredible and unbelieveable hoops. Why must I act like the character are believable? Why can't I say the writer(s) used a very unfair method to get the message across?

If I feel a writer is cheating, either by ignoring obvious questions, by making character commits actions that seem unture, etc. Why can't I say I feel like this. Truly if I watch an anime, did I actually lose a right to complain about what I felt was wrong with the story?

To the person who post I hijacked. I'm sorry I do feel bad about that, I just wanted to write my feeling on the different categories of animes that exist?

Say EVERYTHING you want to. We have freedom of speech here and not the fake freedom of speech like in everyday life here in the states. For example if I went around on the street saying things like :

"Bush Sucks" and

"Only when the proletariat realize that the military-industrial machine of capitolism is oiled with the blood of the workers" and

"September 11th only happened because the U.S. waves its big stick around and treats the third world like dirt because 'America is #1' and only american lives matter." and

"Bushy and his buddies only care about oil and giving large contracts to Haliburton(Cheney's former company through which he still recieves substantial money from) without bids from other companies. They care nothing about the people of the world. Saddam killed his own people.
The Turks(our allies) are trying to finish off the Kurds in yet another bout of ethnic cleansing. We give them money.
The Israeli's(our allies), who are Ashkenazi Jews(a people originally from central Asia who never lived in the holy land and converted to Judaism as a political choice to stay nuetral between warring christians in the Byzantine Empire and muslem Seljuk Turks in Anatolia around the 10th century), kill lotsa Palestinians(yeah they're all "militants") and hate Sefardic Jews(descendants of the Hebrews who migrated to Rome, Spain and the new world) for what is perceived as being too similar to Palestinians in appearance and culture. This is also known as ethnic cleansing. We give them money.
The Saudi's(yet another ally) are a bunch of oil thugs. The Saudi Royal Family controls all the oil in the contry and lives very well. The people have a standard of living similar to that in Afghanistan(pre-war) and Somalia(constant war). They oppress women the same way the Taliban did, even having issues to American servicewomen protecting them in the Gulf War. We give them money.
I wonder why anybody would hate us?" and

"We gave the Taliban $40 million 5 months before sept. 11 because their oppium production went down and we reward nations that try to stop their illegal drug trade." and

"The Japanese have developed cost-efficient fuel-cell systems that are clean and powerful. Why are we still using gas?"

They would through my off-tangent ass in jail and never give me a trial as they now can with they Patriot Act. I would get no lawyer and you would see headlines on the news allong the lines of:

"American college student found supporting terrorism"
"College: education or terrorist training camp?"
"History and Asian Studies, do we really need them?"
"Communist/Liberal student of terror finally stopped by Jesica Lynch!"

Yay a-m-v.org!!!!!!!

(I would never say absurd things such as these. Why, the corporate-controlled news[five companies own every major TV channel, radio station and newspaper] would have told the American public if any of our friends weren't very nice people and they wouldn't be our friends for long. The news tells us all the relevant history of places we go to fight in. Saddam getting Anthrax and the tech for NBC[nuclear,bio,chemical] weapons from us[Cheney, Rummy, Bushy sr.] to kill the Iranians with? That's crazy talk!)

This has been a broadcast of the crazy liberal/communist venting network...

Attention anime fans:
If you read this you are supporting terror and will be locked up or shot for trying to destroy your country by questioning its justified government of officials elected by the one true God. In this time of turmoil we must stand by our rightous president as he sends us off to die smiting the wicked. You traitors will pay for your non-complience


...

[Otohiko]

If you happen to, like myself, see this 'complicated anime' as an art,


You have the right to reject the message.

You have the right to divert your attention away from the artist's intent.

You have the right to not care at all.

You have the right to accuse the artist of cheating, lying, ignoring your wishes.

The artist has every right to act like an asshole and ignore your wishes.

If you would like to know why,

It's not the artist's job to accommodate your wishes

It's not the artist's job to please the audience

It's not the artist's job to create perfection

The artist's job to be true to whatever motives guide him. The artist doesn't require your agreement on everything. The artist does need your attention.

However, should you choose not to give the artist your attention, it's your loss as much as the artist's.

I'm not against people choosing to deny artists attention.

I am against people making this choice for others.

That's why I'm always on the lookout for inflamed 'OMG SUCKS HATE' posters and various Mr. Objectives here.

It's your right to have an opinion.

However, if your opinion is formed via the lack of attention for the artist's intent, it wouldn't be wrong to call your opinion a low-quality opinion.

Give the attention, then give the opinion. Not the other way around.

[dwchang]

What rights do the viewer have? Let's see:

1) To watch the show
2) To like the show
3) To dislike the show
4) To form an opinions about the show and what it presents (unless explicitely stated by the creators).

What does viewer not have the right to do?
1) Tell the creator/artist that they were wrong.

That's fundamentally what you're saying here. "Nu uh I don't agree with j00. I think this is what happened...even though you made it and I had nothing to do with it." As I've said (and Milo) Evangelion's interprettation...doesn't exist (well for the core meaning...obviously can interpret different symbols and objects, but the story is still fundamentally about Shinji). There has already been books written by Gainax explaining all this and yet you argue that they are wrong? Even though they made the show/story?

As Milo said, you have every right to dislike something and offer your opinions, but at the same time, you should be open to the fact people will disagree with you. You however keep pressing the point that you are right and the creators are wrong.

And as for this matter...at least with Eva...it *is* black and white...right or wrong. It's explicitely said in the show, by Gainax and so on. You can't refute that. Just because you didn't like it means that they were wrong. It just means that...you didn't like it.

Stop trying to preach that they were wrong and you have this higher understanding for the show and could've done it better. If that's the case...go make a better version.

[derek_t]

I believe I complained that the point the creators were getting at were heavy handed and forced characters to do things that seemed unbelievable (to me obviously, to someone else it can of course be believeable).

My problem was you said "You watched it and are now complaining about it". Yes, I question the fact that I feel the show went to long. That Shinji was on the verge of learning the lesson but because they need 6 more episodes pulled back. And yes I complained about what I felt was bable (if a supplimental book goes into it fine, but a show shouldn't require a viewer to read a book to understand it).

Who am I to say it, I'm someone who watched the show. If I feel that something the creator is impling is wrong that guess what I do have a right to say.

Something I don't like is you seemed to be saying you say "I should be open to people disagree with you". I have been. Your the ones who are saying "You have to watch the show again" and so forth. I have no problem with debate. You think Eva has a lot to say fine. You don't think the characters were being unfairly manipulated by the writer fine. You think Trigun ended perfectly and its really unimportant that Knives will probably kill everyone after he wakes up because the writers just didn't feel the need to go there, fine. I think its a problem and you can debate me but don't pull a "your not understand the point, you need to watch the show again" crap.

[Otohiko]

I didn't need any brochures to understand Eva

In fact, I formed a pretty good opinion and got quite a few impressions even the first time watching it.

I don't know about this incomplete/unrealistic thing... here's a question for you:

Do you think it's Eva's intent to be crystal-clear on the first view? Do you think Trigun aims to end in an unambiguous, simple fashion?

I'm all for evaluating the show based on how it accomplishes what it accomplishes or aims to accomplish for an attentive viewer.

I'm against evaluating things based on what they could have or (in whoever's opinion) should have been.

I'm not inviting you to love everything like you're the next Jesus, but I would invite everyone to see things for what they are or at least what they present for the viewer's interpretation.

It's like arguing on 'what if there was no Eva 25+26?'. You can come up with a bazillion on theories, and that in no way, shape or form alters the fact that they exist and probably should be dealt with as they are.

[derek_t]

Well Otohiko, I actually didn't find Eva confusing either. Actually that is part of the fun of Eva. I find that no one person agrees on what is going on. We all agree on the point of Shinji and what he learns. It what going on in Nerv that becomes fun. Every person seems to have their own opinion of what Nerv is about. It just I felt attacked by dw earlier and told I "need to watch it again" which I feel is condesending BS. I haven't said what I feel occured in the end.

My problem isn't that fact that Eva is unclear. Its that I feel characters are being forced into actions that seem untrue by the writers (Shinji leaving and then coming back to Nerv for example). I also felt that the symbolism was what is know as "empty symbolism". Where they symbols are only there for the cool effect and not actually have any meaning to any bit of the story. I know you disagree with me Milo and dw and I've never been upset with your disagreements, only your assertions that my view is completly off and I need to watch the show again because if I watched carfully the first time I would of noticed the important stuff.

As far as Trigun. What is its aim then. To tell viewers "you should try, even if in the attempt you get killed because after all trying matters, results don't" then this view is well, not one I can agree with (happy dw, I avoid using the term wrong). I think when it comes to lives that its success or failure is sort of important. So the ending doesn't accomplish much now does it.

[dwchang]

It what going on in Nerv that becomes fun. Every person seems to have their own opinion of what Nerv is about.

Not really, after about a billion of these Evangelion discussions, I've noticed that most people seem to accept things that Gainax said just fine and in the end understand what was going on. What in particular do you need further explanation about? I'm sure it's been touched in a previous topic and someone would be glad to enlighten me. I know this'll sound arrogant, but I don't find anything in Evangelion unclear or ambiguous. It's all there (even without the Red Cross book).

My problem isn't that fact that Eva is unclear. Its that I feel characters are being forced into actions that seem untrue by the writers (Shinji leaving and then coming back to Nerv for example). I also felt that the symbolism was what is know as "empty symbolism". Where they symbols are only there for the cool effect and not actually have any meaning to any bit of the story. I know you disagree with me Milo and dw and I've never been upset with your disagreements, only your assertions that my view is completly off and I need to watch the show again because if I watched carfully the first time I would of noticed the important stuff.

I don't think people are angry at you for disagreeing, that's fine and human. You're entitled to it. I think we're (at least me) are more annoyed by the fact you're saying that the creator shouldn't have done X or Y and that you know better than them (or at least that is the air and tone of your replies). Again, you didn't make it and instead chose to watch it. If you dislike it, fine, but to reject what they did and say they're wrong is kind of preposterous. YOU chose to watch it and whether you like what THEY want to say or not is up to you, but to say that you know better (or at least imply by saying they should've done X, Y and Z) is just stupid.

If you want them to do that or tell you a diff. story/meaning...why don't you go write it yourself or just choose to dislike it? I guess ultimately, that's what you're saying, but your tone and resistance seems to imply the opposite.

[Arigatomina]

Uncle Milo, dwchang, and Otohiko bring up something that I find is odd with anime. How to critique the story.

If the anime were a novel, there would be nothing wrong with saying the writer failed to bring across what he intended because readers didn't catch the message. It isn't up to the reader to get the message - the reader just looks at what's there, it's the writer who molds his story into a format that a reader can understand. If only a few readers understand the story then yes, it failed to reach the majority. That is a flaw on the part of the writer, not the majority - the only case where this isn't true is if the writer *wanted* to have a story that only a few could understand.

If an anime is aimed at being undestandable for any viewer, then it shouldn't bring up complaints from a majority of viewers about how unclear certain aspects are. If the anime was done so that only a few very astute viewers would catch it, then it doesn't matter if the rest of the viewers are left frowning and wondering what the hell just happened and what the point was. It's a matter of what the creator (in the case of anime) had in mind when he made the story. You *can* say he failed if he didn't accomplish his original intention. That's how you critique 'stories' whether it's writing or animation - "Did the creator accomplish what he set out to do?"

What right does the viewer have? The same right any reader or viewer has - to find out what the creator intended and to tell whether or not that creator acheived that goal. This is based on the reader/viewer's own reaction. If the creator failed on one viewer, that leaves a possibility that the creator failed as a whole - add up the number of people he failed to achieve his goal with and you can find out if he really did fail.

My main point is that you can criticise the creator (writer) of an anime just like you'd criticise the writer of an essay or documentary. Did he achieve his goal? If not, then he failed. Maybe he only failed on one or two people, but if he failed to reach a multitude, then you can't say he's very good at what he does.

Just because anime isn't disected like novels in an educational setting, that doesn't meant the creator of that anime has any protection or rights over his viewers. He's subject to be judged the same as anyone else telling a story - storytelling is not a painting that can be called 'great' even when no one understands it. The message is as important as the delivery, and if the creator can't put his message into a format people can read, then he's a bad writer (creator).